Mini Helix - HX Stomp...

[dannybuoy]

I still don't think a separate DI is necessary if you can make use of the stereo outs or sends. The output is balanced so all you need is a TRS-to-XLR converter if you want to use the XLR leads that are probably already on stage. If you can adjust the volume and flick it between instrument and line level, that's pretty much all you need.

What will an additional DI box bring to the table? The only thing I can fathom is perhaps a signal pad, if the instrument level output is still too hot for the mic input on the desk and the desk can't take a line input. But most desks have pads / trim controls on them anyway.

[Al Krow]

20 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

What will an additional DI box bring to the table? 

Separate DI can still be useful if you're not soloing with the HXS / combining with other pedals and don't want to have HXS right at the end of your signal chain. Given its compact form there's going to be a lot of flexibility to do exactly that!  

If you're mainly going to be using it for modulation (phase, tremolo, flange), delay or filter duties then near the end of your chain makes sense. For compression, octave, dirt, bit crush and synth then nearer the start I would have thought.

[dannybuoy]

I get that you would need a separate DI if putting other FX after it, but @Sibob seemed pretty insistent that the built-in balanced outs would be unsuitable going straight to the desk, so I was just trying to work out why, 'tis all!

[Al Krow]

33 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

I get that you would need a separate DI if putting other FX after it, but @Sibob seemed pretty insistent that the built-in balanced outs would be unsuitable going straight to the desk, so I was just trying to work out why, 'tis all!

Yeh, not sure @Sibob is in the majority on this one! (And I don't quite get it either).

However, nor was Galileo...

[Sibob]

42 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

I get that you would need a separate DI if putting other FX after it, but @Sibob seemed pretty insistent that the built-in balanced outs would be unsuitable going straight to the desk, so I was just trying to work out why, 'tis all!

I think I was getting a bit carried away that people meant that a 'balanced' output was relevant to the level of the signal, so I went off on one haha.
Quite right that it would resolve the long cable impedance issue, and of course if you were running the outputs as switched to Line-level, you could run it straight to a PA's Line-In, but that also means you have no outputs going to your amp, so great for running as part of an ampless setup, otherwise you'll want a DI box haha.

Si

[Bridgehouse]

There’s quite a bit of confusion and mix up in this thread. Let’s separate out some points for clarity.

TRS & XLR - different connectors, same job. TRS stands for tip/ring/shield and means there are two signal wires and one ground - this allows for a balanced connection which (keeping it simple) allows much longer cable runs that can have any noise picked up along the way cancelled out at the other end. XLR is the same - two signal, one ground and thus balanced. 

A standard bass cable is one signal one ground and thus unbalanced - long cable runs will pick up noise.

Now, the key bit is the impedance & voltage of the signal you are trying to send. From lowest to highest - mic, instrument, line. 

Depending on the equipment you are plugging in to, you are trying to find an input that will deal with your signal properly. A mic input on a mixer will have a mic Preamp that deals with its low output levels - a line input may not work well, but some pro stuff will be able to. The desk may have a separate line input, either xlr or TRS. 

A DI box that a soundman asks you to plug in to will convert instrument level to mic level and will have a balanced output for a long cable length.

The key bit here is that the Stomp has a balanced output for long cable runs - so long as the soundman knows its line level then they can do what they need to do at the other end and not worry about cable run length. If you present it as TRS or XLR it’s actally sort of irrelevant.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Bridgehouse

[Bridgehouse]

And just for clarity - DI (direct injection/interface) comes from replacing a microphone in the signal chain (mic’ing an amp or instrument) with a direct connection

[dannybuoy]

Since it has stereo outs and not many bassists need actual stereo, you should be able to split the signal, pan it hard left and right and apply a cab sim to one channel only, and use that as your DI.

[Bridgehouse]

Just thinking about this, the sw setting of the output level is the handy part on the Stomp. 

Ignore the connector for now...

Some scenarios..

Plugging directly into the front end of a trad amp = set output to instrument and use a standard cable

Plugging into a power amp - if it has balanced line in then set to line output and 1/4 trs to 1/4 trs lead - length unimportant. If not balanced then also set to line but use a standard instrument cable and take care of length.

Mixer for FOH - if there’s a line input (of any flavour!) set to line and use appropriate cable - could be trs to xlr if balanced or to 1/4 if not

If the mixer needs to use a mic input then set to instrument level and go straight into the on stage DI box provided by soundman or use a DI pedal and use provided XLR into that.

[Bridgehouse]

3 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

Since it has stereo outs and not many bassists need actual stereo, you should be able to split the signal, pan it hard left and right and apply a cab sim to one channel only, and use that as your DI.

I’m not convinced the stereo out is the answer for DI - it’s a bit either or - the two signal lines are there to provide the “balanced bit” (phase is reversed so that any picked up noise can be cancelled out) - but in true stereo I’m not sure you’d necessarily want this for DI to a mixer. 

The stereo would be useful to output to a power amp or other device that could process the stereo 

You’d have to use two channels on the mixer for a stereo input (unless there is one already there) and that means two unbalanced connections so some sort of DI would be required to allow long cable runs.

You can see this in reality on the full fat helix - it has two (L/R) XLR balanced outputs for just this purpose..

[Jack]

1 minute ago, Bridgehouse said:

I’m not convinced the stereo out is the answer for DI - it’s a bit either or - the two signal lines are there to provide the “balanced bit” (phase is reversed so that any picked up noise can be cancelled out) - but in true stereo I’m not sure you’d necessarily want this for DI to a mixer. 

The stereo would be useful to output to a power amp or other device that could process the stereo 

You’d have to use two channels on the mixer for a stereo input (unless there is one already there) and that means two unbalanced connections so some sort of DI would be required to allow long cable runs.

You can see this in reality on the full fat helix - it has two (L/R) XLR balanced outputs for just this purpose..

Yeah but 99% of the time it'll be dual mono rather than stereo, so you can send the same signal to both something on stage and the mixer. In that case you could use a balanced line level to a power amp and the other line output to a mixer.

[Bridgehouse]

2 minutes ago, Jack said:

Yeah but 99% of the time it'll be dual mono rather than stereo, so you can send the same signal to both something on stage and the mixer. In that case you could use a balanced line level to a power amp and the other line output to a mixer.

Thinking about it, I reckon Line6 had a choice to make, given the space available in the stomp.

They had to provide a non-instrument type balanced out.. and it needed to support stereo as loads of Helix's effects are stereo and would be a bit rubbish if there was no stereo out. 

Now, to do a Balanced XLR Direct Output in Stereo would require two (L/R) XLR's - just as for full fat helix. Way too much real estate taken up there and they'd struggle to squeeze it in! So, a single Mono balanced XLR out would mean no access to that stereo goodness, so instead it's a TRS Stereo output - which is dual purpose - can be stereo when needed, or balanced, and can be set to inst or line level. 

Personally, I'd have ditched midi and gone for a Mono mic level balanced XLR and a TRS Stereo out to cover all bases - but that's just me  

The TRS Stereo out is more than good enough for 99% of usage scenarios - each time I turn up to a gig with a switched on sound guy they normally wonder over with an XLR cable and a phantom powered DI box connected, then either unplug the XLR and put that into my DI out or have a 1/4" straight into the box. If I presented twin 1/4's for stereo he'd go find another DI box. If I went stereo to another amp he'd either take a DI out of that or again, two 1/4" outs to DI boxes. 

If he didn't have a clue what to do with a 1/4" TRS out and didn't understand me when I said "line or instrument level?" I'd be concerned about a whole heap of other stuff.. like if the audience are actually going to hear us at all and if we are gonna blow up 😁

[Bridgehouse]

9 minutes ago, Jack said:

Yeah but 99% of the time it'll be dual mono rather than stereo, so you can send the same signal to both something on stage and the mixer. In that case you could use a balanced line level to a power amp and the other line output to a mixer.

Don't forget - if you split those TRS signals (L/R) to two monos then you lose the "balanced" bit....

[CameronJ]

1 hour ago, Bridgehouse said:

Don't forget - if you split those TRS signals (L/R) to two monos then you lose the "balanced" bit....

I thought each channel of the TRS main outs was balanced independently? Hence the TRS per jack? Or am I missing something??

[Bridgehouse]

Just now, CameronJ said:

I thought each channel of the TRS main outs was balanced independently? Hence the TRS per jack? Or am I missing something??

For balanced output (noiseless over distance) you need two signal lines (tip and ring) to allow the reverse phasing which cancels the noise picked up off the cable. 

Some equipment will balance this in stereo at the other end, but if you split it into two outputs then you get two unbalanced mono feeds out. 

[Bridgehouse]

Unless the Stomp output is 4 signal wires and splits into two different TRS outputs in mono and thus two signal wires per channel - in which case 

[CameronJ]

1 hour ago, Bridgehouse said:

Unless the Stomp output is 4 signal wires and splits into two different TRS outputs in mono and thus two signal wires per channel - in which case 

This is what I believe to be the case

[Bridgehouse]

Just now, CameronJ said:

This is what I believe to be the case

That’s some clever wiring then... 😂

Either way, the important bit is the conversation you have with the soundman before you plug in to anything.... 

[dannybuoy]

I think someone’s got the wrong end of the stick. As far as I can tell the HX Stomp as two independent outputs both with TRS balanced jacks. When I referred to splitting the signal I meant within the software routing of the unit itself rather than physically splitting cables.

So send the left output with a few effects to your amp, the right output with an amp/cab sim added direct to the board, via a TRS to XLR adapter if the soundman passes you an XLR lead.

[Bridgehouse]

1 minute ago, dannybuoy said:

I think someone’s got the wrong end of the stick. As far as I can tell the HX Stomp as two independent outputs both with TRS balanced jacks. When I referred to splitting the signal I meant within the software routing of the unit itself rather than physically splitting cables.

So send the left output with a few effects to your amp, the right output with an amp/cab sim added direct to the board, via a TRS to XLR adapter if the soundman passes you an XLR lead.

Ah if it’s a left and right separate TRS then yes, both will be balanced 

[CameronJ]

4 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

I think someone’s got the wrong end of the stick. As far as I can tell the HX Stomp as two independent outputs both with TRS balanced jacks. When I referred to splitting the signal I meant within the software routing of the unit itself rather than physically splitting cables.

So send the left output with a few effects to your amp, the right output with an amp/cab sim added direct to the board, via a TRS to XLR adapter if the soundman passes you an XLR lead.

This.

[Al Krow]

So do I need to ignore most of the previous 17 posts now then?! 😂

[Bridgehouse]

38 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

So do I need to ignore most of the previous 17 posts now then?! 😂

Yes, but more accurately, no

[CameronJ]

20 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

Yes, but more accurately, no

This.

[Bridgehouse]

58 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

So do I need to ignore most of the previous 17 posts now then?! 😂

Serious answer - no - it’s all too easy to mix up DI, balanced, impedance, trs, trss, xlr etc