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How do you pull a decent tone an old Trace Elliot amp?

project_c

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discreet Grand Master

discreet

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Twincam said:

The TE sound has a niche but it's not timeless. 

My point is you don't have to have the TE sound if you don't want it. :)

1 minute ago, Twincam said:

They were certainly well built. And I hate to sound cliched but they seem better built than a lot of modern stuff. Especially the combos. 

Not a cliche at all, they ARE better built. Heavier, but better built. :D Trace gear was pretty bloody expensive back in the day, but I seriously doubt it would be commercially viable now.

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Twincam Proficient

Twincam

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6 minutes ago, discreet said:

My point is you don't have to have the TE sound if you don't want it. :)

Not a cliche at all, they ARE better built. Heavier, but better built. :D Trace gear was pretty bloody expensive back in the day, but I seriously doubt it would be commercially viable now.

I looked up a 7215smc as i used to own one. Came across an old advert for a used one, in the ad they state it's a reasonably light weight combo.

Approx 34kg 🤣

 

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discreet Grand Master

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5 minutes ago, Twincam said:

...I looked up a 7215smc as i used to own one. Came across an old advert for a used one, in the ad they state it's a reasonably light weight combo. Approx 34kg ...

The 1x15 combos were a 'compact' option at the time, IIRC... :D I suppose compared to the truly  enormous Trace rigs, they were. Like I say, it's all relative.

I went down the road of very lightweight gear for a while - a BF One10 and a GK MB200, a very nice little rig - but it just didn't have the slam of a Trace or an Ashdown combo, nor would you expect it to, really. I found I had gone too far in sacrificing heft for portability. It's actually a difficult call sometimes...

I know it's been proved that one can't tell the sound of a Class D amp in a blind listening test, but recordings are one thing and gigs are another. I can't shake the feeling that there is something lacking with Class D, especially live! But that's been covered elsewhere.

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Twincam Proficient

Twincam

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8 minutes ago, discreet said:

The 1x15 combos were a 'compact' option at the time, IIRC... :D I suppose compared to the truly  enormous Trace rigs, they were. Like I say, it's all relative.

I went down the road of very lightweight gear for a while - a BF One10 and a GK MB200, a very nice little rig - but it just didn't have the slam of a Trace or an Ashdown combo, nor would you expect it to, really. I found I had gone too far in sacrificing heft for portability. It's actually a difficult call sometimes...

I know it's been proved that one can't tell the sound of a Class D amp in a blind listening test, but recordings are one thing and gigs are another. I can't shake the feeling that there is something lacking with Class D, especially live! But that's been covered elsewhere.

At around about the time I had the TE combo I had a aguilar ag500 and a ashdown abm 500. The TE was the loudest and it's still the loudest solid state amp watt for watt I've heard. 

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discreet Grand Master

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25 minutes ago, Twincam said:

At around about the time I had the TE combo I had a aguilar ag500 and a ashdown abm 500. The TE was the loudest and it's still the loudest solid state amp watt for watt I've heard. 

The combo I have now is rated at 150W RMS, but I've yet to get beyond 8 o'clock on the master. It's incredibly loud. It's well-known that Trace watts are different from other solid state watts - and valve watts are different from solid states watts - so how loud is a Trace valve amp?? O.o

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LukeFRC Grand Master

LukeFRC

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On 12/10/2018 at 15:27, discreet said:

You know, I doubt it, as the new Trace stuff just isn't like the old Trace stuff... I could be wrong, though. :)  Meanwhile, this just arrived...

20181012_152541.jpg

Argh we had that model at the church I played bass for for almost ten years. Ok I admit I probably would be better with the eq now but sticking a bright sounding Warwick streamer with active pups into it was like going through a time machine into an 80s nightmare. 

Mind you I would try one again... though the tech who fixed my walkabout warned me off them as *apparently* the Fets are out of production 

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discreet Grand Master

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3 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

...a bright sounding Warwick streamer with active pups...

Yeah, that's where you went wrong. :D

4 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

*apparently* the Fets are out of production...

I should imagine it's ALL out of production. Mine has been sitting in a studio, largely unused, for twenty years.

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Ghost_Bass Proficient

Ghost_Bass

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This questions pops up on the forum way too frequently. I think it deserved a pinned topic. Getting a nice sound of a TE requires a bit of understanding of how the preamp works and the TE manual explains it very well on pretty much all models. I'll post here a quote from the GP12 manual that has more bells and whistles but the same applies to other models. Downloading the correct manual is very handy and you can find it online easily through your phone in any situation (if you have a internet plan or wireless connection):

Source: https://www.britishaudioservice.com/trace-elliot-manuals

 

Quote

INPUTS

There are two Instrument Inputs, one optimised for PASSIVE instruments with a high input impedance and high sensitivity and the other optimised for ACTIVE instruments with a much lower impedance and greater headroom. The PASSIVE input is high impedance and sensitivity. This is designed to match the output from instruments that have no internal pre-amp or battery. These instruments usually have a single volume control and a single tone control. It is best to keep the volume control on the instrument well advanced, as turning this back usually also reduces the upper frequencies available from the pick-ups. The PASSIVE input is also suitable for Piezo pick-ups or for use with active instruments that provide only a very low output signal. The ACTIVE input, is for use with instruments that have a pre-amp powered by a battery built into the bass. The output from these instruments is low impedance and of a much higher signal level than from a passive bass. The ACTIVE input is designed to cope with these higher level signals.

INPUT GAIN

The level of the instrument signal through the amplifier is adjusted using the INPUT GAIN control. This has level indication using 3 LED’s. The first marked ‘More Gain’ indicating that more level through the amplifier is required for optimum performance from the unit. The second has a ‘Thumbs Up’ symbol indicating that the INPUT GAIN control is set correctly and a third marked ‘Less Gain’ indicates that clipping or distortion is occurring at some point throughout the amplifier. The circuit for these LED’s monitors a number of strategic points throughout the amplifier and is thus a good indication when unwanted clipping is occurring. To get the best results from your amplifier it is important to understand fully the correct use of the INPUT GAIN control. The optimum setting is achieved when the INPUT GAIN control is as high as possible without lighting the red LESS GAIN LED. The OUTPUT LEVEL control should be used to make any changes to the overall amplifier volume whilst the INPUT GAIN control is left set at its optimum position to suit your instrument. To set these two controls correctly use the following procedure:- First turn the OUTPUT LEVEL control to zero. Plug your bass into the appropriate ACTIVE or PASSIVE input. Turn all volume controls on your bass up full. Gradually turn up the INPUT GAIN control while playing your bass as hard as you are likely to during your performance. When the red LESS GAIN LED lights up reduce the INPUT GAIN slightly until this LED goes out. Now turn up the OUTPUT LEVEL to give the desired volume. N.B. For most instruments the INPUT GAIN control will end up being set between 6 and 9 on the scale. If the GRAPHIC EQUALISATION is altered it may be necessary to re-adjust the INPUT GAIN control. All circuits in the pre-amp are designed to work at their optimum when the INPUT GAIN is correctly set.

HARMONIC EMPHASIS

HARMONIC EMPHASIS is a NEW addition within this amplifier and consists of a circuit that takes the bass signal and emphasises certain harmonics within it to produce a bright zingy top end. It is not an EQ circuit, for it actually synthesises new harmonics that it adds to the original sound. The best way to describe this is that it is similar to the top end zing you get from a new set of strings. This has a LEVEL control and can be switched in or out with the front panel switch. Use this in moderation, as you will find that it adds a lot of bright harmonics to the sound. If you are using an active instrument you may find that this will also emphasise any hiss produced by the active electronics in the bass. You can easily confirm this extra hiss is coming from the active instrument by unplugging it from the input. If the hiss goes away then it is coming from the bass itself.

PRE-SHAPE

This is the classic Trace Elliot ‘Mid Pre-Shape’ that that everybody knows. This can be switched in or out with the front panel switch, with the 5 way foot switch or via MIDI ( on the AH1000 and GP12X only ). It has an Orange LED below the switch to indicate when it is on. This colour of LED is duplicated on the 5 way foot switch unit. The PRE-SHAPE is like a pre-set graphic equaliser that you can switch in or out to modify the sound of the bass. The PRE-SHAPE provides a mid cut plus a top and bottom end boost and when switched in provides extra punch to your sound.

GRAPHIC EQUALISATION

This is the familiar Trace Elliot 12 Band Graphic Equaliser that has been updated for this range of amplifiers and plays somewhat of a lesser role within these units. It still has the versatility of EQ that it has always provided but is now just one of a number of facilities to allow you to create your own unique bass tone. The GRAPHIC EQUALISER section operates by boosting or cutting the level of signal at various frequency points throughout the frequency range. With the sliders set on 0dB ( in their centre ‘click’ position ) no alteration is made to the signal. Moving any one of the sliders up will increase or ‘boost’ the signal at the frequency marked below the slider. Moving the slider down will decrease or ‘cut’ the signal at that frequency. The GRAPHIC EQUALISATION can be switched in or out with the front panel switch, with the 5 way foot switch or via MIDI ( on the AH1000 and GP12X only ). It has a Green LED below the switch to indicate when it is on. This colour of LED is duplicated on the 5 way foot switch unit. A carefully designed GRAPHIC EQUALISER is a very flexible way of varying the sound of a bass guitar and if properly used will provide an extremely powerful method of tone shaping for your instrument. Because of the flexibility and massive BOOST and CUT potential of this particular GRAPHIC it is important to know how to get the best from it. Firstly a few things not to do and the reasons why: Do not boost or cut all frequency bands as this will have the same effect as increasing or decreasing the overall volume level without affecting the tonal characteristic of the sound. Do not use excessive bottom ( 30 to 40Hz ) boost on the graphic unless your speakers can handle it. Very few speaker systems are capable of handling frequencies as low as 30 and 40Hz with any degree of efficiency. N.B. Boosting at 30Hz for instance will not add to the perceived amount of bottom end in the sound, it will only make your speakers flap to no useful effect. In fact boosting at 100Hz or 180Hz will have the apparent effect of adding far more bottom end than boosting at 30, 40 or even 60Hz. Do not use excessive top ( 10 to 15kHz ) boost, this will add mostly hiss to the sound as there is very little signal output at this frequency from a bass. The 30Hz slider has been provided to allow precise tailoring at very low frequencies. This slider should be used to CUT ( not Boost ) the 30Hz to a level that allows the speaker system to work at its maximum efficiency.

Useful Observations

The fundamental frequency range of a regular, four string bass guitar is from 41.2Hz ( bottom E string ) to around 392Hz ( two octaves up on the G string ) - not a very wide range. Obviously a lot of harmonics are produced when playing and these can extend up to 5kHz and more. The attack portion of the note also produces other high frequencies when the string is first struck. This attack can be emphasised by boosting the top end. However because of the fairly small range of frequencies from a bass, by top end we mean between 2.6kHz and 5kHz. You will find that by boosting at 5kHz the attack will be emphasised whereas by boosting at 1.3 and 2.6kHz you will bring out the harmonics in the note. Above this frequency range you will find it is better not to boost the signal as this will mainly emphasise any hiss present. This hiss will not be masked by the bass signal when playing due to the very small amount of bass guitar frequency content at 10 to 15kHz. Use the 30Hz and 40Hz sliders sparingly unless you have a massive stack of speakers available, and the power amplifiers to drive them. You will find that rolling off the bottom end by using these two sliders will allow you to play at a far greater volume level without the speakers complaining. Try to keep the graphic sliders balanced around 0dB and in a smooth flowing curve from one slider to the next, and remember that after adjusting the graphic you may need to re-set the INPUT GAIN.

VALVE STAGE

This has been moved from the front end where it resided in previous Trace Elliot amplifiers and placed in a position of prime importance within the EQ section. It has now become a very versatile tool in its own right. It is a two-stage ( double triode ) valve section with the ability to be overdriven if desired. The Valve Stage has a single level control marked ‘VALVE DRIVE’ that provides a wide range of bass enhancement. Set between minimum and 12 o’clock it provides classic bass ‘warmth’ along with top end ‘sparkle’ both of which come from the valves natural ability to add a small amount of second degree harmonics. Set between 12 o’clock and full it overdrives providing a degree of grunge to the sound typical of hard worked valve amplifiers. For Rock players this control is probably all you need. Turn everything else off and turn the volume up ( with maybe a bit of compression ). The Valve stage is placed after the Graphic so that altering the graphic will also alter the distortion that the valve stage produces. The maximum amount of overdrive obviously depends on the INPUT GAIN setting, and with this set to its optimum level the VALVE DRIVE control has been tailored to give a generous degree of grunge when set on full without degenerating into a fuzz box. If you want more distortion then try increasing the INPUT GAIN slightly but do not go too far as this may introduce clipping in other parts of the pre-amp that will add third harmonic distortion that is not as nice as the distortion from the VALVE. The Valve Stage can be switched in or out with the front panel switch, with the 5 way foot switch or via MIDI ( on the AH1000 and GP12X only ). It has a Red LED below the switch to indicate when it is on. This colour of LED is duplicated on the 5 way foot switch unit.

COMPRESSION

The compression used in this range of amplifiers is Dual Band Compression, where the bass signal is split into its High Pass and Low Pass signals. Each is then compressed individually with attack and decay characteristics optimised to suit each part of the frequency spectrum. The signal is finally re-combined into a full range bass signal once again after compression has been applied. This works far better than a single full range compressor for a bass guitar signal. The reason for this is simply that any kind of FULL RANGE compression used on bass is always an unacceptable compromise. If set to suit low frequencies it cannot act fast enough to catch the attack transients, and if the compressor is set fast enough to catch these transients then it distorts the low frequencies. If you have used any kind of full range compression then you will know what we mean. Control is provided over the degree of LOW COMPRESSION and HIGH COMPRESSION individually and the eventual mix of these two is controlled by the COMPRESSION BALANCE control giving further EQ possibilities ( as described below ). This circuit has been improved over that used in previous Trace Elliot products and full bypass switching has been added. The entire compression circuit can be switched in or out with the front panel switch, with the 5 way foot switch or via MIDI ( on the AH1000 and GP12X only ). It has a Blue LED below the switch to indicate when it is on. This colour of LED is duplicated on the foot switch unit.

Low Compression

Applying compression to the LOW PASS portion of the signal gives a fat bottom end to the sound without losing the upper frequency attack characteristics of the note. It is somewhat of a less processed sounding effect than full range compression but works extremely well in smoothing out bass signal peaks allowing a far greater volume of amplification to be used without the risk of speakers complaining. You will also find that a degree of LOW compression will add definition to your playing, bringing out notes within a run without loss of the upper dynamics. As the LOW COMPRESSION control is advanced and compression is applied to the signal the overall level of volume is compensated for. If this were not done then adding compression would have the effect of reducing the volume of the sound as the available dynamics are reduced. With the INPUT GAIN control correctly set, switching in the compression will cause no apparent change in volume. If the INPUT GAIN is set too low then switching in the compression will cause an increase in volume. The opposite will be true if the INPUT GAIN is set too high.

High Compression

The HIGH COMPRESSION should be used with care as it is directly affecting the attack portion of the bass sound. This can be used to good effect but moderation should always be exercised when applying high compression. As the HIGH COMPRESSION control is advanced and compression is applied to the signal the overall level of volume is compensated for. If this were not done then adding compression would have the effect of reducing the volume of the sound as the available dynamics are reduced. However in the case of the HIGH COMPRESSION this means that additional gain is added at high frequencies. The more the compression control is advanced the more additional gain. If you are adding top boost or harmonic emphasis along with HIGH COMPRESSION to an active instrument this will considerably increase the level of HISS that is present when the bass is not being played. HIGH COMPRESSION is directly affecting the attack portion of the sound and can therefore be used to vary the type of attack and the level of the attack transient within the bass guitar sound.

Compression Balance

The COMPRESSION BALANCE control adjusts the balance between the HIGH PASS and LOW PASS portions of the bass sound after compression has been added. This can be used as an additional EQ control affecting the sound only when the compression is switched in. Turning this control to the right increases the top end and decreases the bottom end within the sound, while turning it to the left increases the bottom end and decreases the top end. The two compression circuits can be set individually to produce some useful sounds. With LOW COMPRESSION set to about 5 to tighten up the bottom end of the sound, the HIGH COMPRESSION can be varied in conjunction with the COMPRESSION BALANCE control to produce a variety of different attacks to the note to suit many different playing styles.

Sorry for the big text but TE did a fantastic job at creating a very clear and explanatory manual with lots of useful EQ tips and i hope it helps someone understand how to setup a TE properly, it may seem hard to understand but in fact it's quite easy to get the grip after the first read.

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discreet Grand Master

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Posted
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1 hour ago, Ghost_Bass said:

https://www.britishaudioservice.com/trace-elliot-manuals

Sorry for the big text but TE did a fantastic job at creating a very clear and explanatory manual with lots of useful EQ tips and i hope it helps someone understand how to setup a TE properly, it may seem hard to understand but in fact it's quite easy to get the grip after the first read.

Not at all, that's fascinating and pretty much how I do it... after quite a bit of trial and error! Another point to consider is the fact you probably won't get a sound you much like playing solo. It all comes together in concert, which is why your tone should be got when you're playing with your band...

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BassBod Mentor

BassBod

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Yes, the TE manual is very comprehensive.  I remember years ago, with a Series VI and a Wal (!) it was a struggle to get a good stage sound in hurried sound checks, and it was made harder by not having many decent PA’s.  The amp had to cover the room, so it usually seemed way too much on stage.  

These days, with an old(er) AH150 it seems much easier.  Pick a bass that sounds good, turn off the pre-shape and use the graphic eq very sparingly, usually just a slight low boost and some upper mid cut.  DI into PA if the room needs it. 😎

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Ghost_Bass Proficient

Ghost_Bass

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, discreet said:

Not at all, that's fascinating and pretty much how I do it... after quite a bit of trial and error! Another point to consider is the fact you probably won't get a sound you much like playing solo. It all comes together in concert, which is why your tone should be got when you're playing with your band...

+1

Sure thing, but first you need to learn how to work with the gear, that's where this comes in handy ;)  

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Ghost_Bass Proficient

Ghost_Bass

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But this all can be resumed, this is the way i used to do it:

- Start with everything Flat/Switches OFF, Master and Gain at 0
- Set gain, slapping the bass until the clip led lights up, then go back a notch;
- Pre-Shape / Valve sim / compressor OFF, you don't need that!;
- Set Masted to sensible volume;
- Turn on EQ switch, set the first and last sliders to cut almost all the way (that low-end rumble and high end hiss aren't pretty to be heard);
- Re-check gain;
- EQ to taste keeping the EQ curve balanced around the 0dB line;
- Re-check gain;
- Set Master to gig level;

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