TC, Mooer, Valeton - End game for high-price pedals?

[Al Krow]

Was just thinking today that with a TC sub'n'up and Spectracomp** going for £63 would folk still be tempted to pay £140 for a COG T16 or £269 for a Cali 76CB?

Add into the mix Valeton pedals starting to get a name as a quality Boss clone in a smaller Boss style housing and at considerably smaller price (why buy a used 30 year old Boss OC2 for £80, when a brand new Valeton OC-10 can be had for £35?) and Mooer being well established in this budget space, it seems to me it's going to be a brutal time for some of the other manufacturers.

It used to be the case that pay peanuts and expect to get cra*p. But no longer. Some of the gear being made by TC, Mooer and Valeton is actually really decent.

I suspect that some USA made pedals (e.g. Aguilar, 3Leaf) which can easily cost > £200 (new) with transport, duties and VAT will now start struggle to find customers, unless they have something particularly "special" to offer that can't be got elsewhere.

Good news for us bass players, as consumers, with cheaper pedals coming on stream from these three and other manufacturers, which will drive down prices across the board? Or simply likely to make it no longer worthwhile for manufacturers to spend on R&D and start driving niche manufacturers out of business and thereby limiting choice?

It's been a bit of a golden era in terms of bass effects over the past few years. Is that all about to change?

Bass pedal users and lovers - what are your thoughts? 

 

** actually you can currently pick up a Spectracomp for £49 plus P&P at DV247 as a discounted return

Edited October 7, 2018 by Al Krow

[radiophonic]

Well there's two issues here - does it really do the same thing and exactly how overpriced some boutique pedals are.  I wouldn't lump TC in with Mooer either. They are an innovative company, but they've just made an interesting commercial decision that's resulted in a big price drop. That said, personally I never got on with the Sub N Up and the 'classic' mode was no substitute for a good analog octave down. However, if the Valeton is as good as is being suggested, then maybe the game is up for boutique OC2 clones. I can't see me losing my Okto Nojs solely because the parallel fuzz is so convenient for synth stuff. So maybe the additional functionality is where companies like Emma, 3 Leaf survive etc. The Spectracomp looks like bargain of the century though and if I didn't already have a multiband comp, I'd buy one immediately. The Flashback 2 looks like a similar bargain.  Even though I have an El Capistan, I still use the original Flashback for a worn / washy Binson style delay. My guess is that boutique analog pedals aren't going anywhere, especially drive/gain and filter pedals but that the sophisticated DSP found in Strymon, Meris et al will gradually trickle down to the mass market. Only innovation will allow these companies to survive.  In fact I'll be interested to see what Strymon do next.  At the very top end of weirdness, Red Panda and the like will continue to serve a specialised market. There will never be mass demand for gear like that.  

 

[EliasMooseblaster]

22 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

Only innovation will allow these companies to survive.

^ this will probably be the crucial question. They've survived for a long time by being the only companies that could offer "that sound" or "that effect," but now there are plenty of far cheaper options. I started shopping around for Tube Screamers last week - it's a guitar tone I've always liked - saw the options, and the prices, and wondered which model to go for...and then found out that instead of forking out £100, I could get a Chinese-made clone for <£30, which had TS9 and TS808 modes at the flick of a switch. (Obviously I won't know how good it is until it arrives, but other reviews have been quite positive...)

The TS9B, on the other hand, I've not found replicated anywhere else. Seem to recall I paid ~£150 for that five or six years ago. Are we into boutique territory at that price point? Either way, that's a tone I've not found in any other bass OD pedal. It's not even an esoteric sound, but if nobody else is doing it, then nobody else will undercut them.

 

(I realise this is probably the point at which you all bombard me with links to cheap Bass Tube Screamer clones...)

[Japhet]

I'm putting together a pedal board using cheap components as a bit of an experiment. Some have been very good and others haven't. In the 'good' catagory I'd put the Valeton OC 10 and FR 10 which are an octaver and a preamp (both sourced for peanuts on ebay). I'm also quite liking the TC Mojomojo and the Mooer Hustle.  I also got hold of a Zoom MS60B off the forum which does all sorts of stuff. I had a few noise issues and so picked up a new Vitoos ISO4 Plus power supply for under £30 which seems to do a good job - for how long is anybody's guess though. I think brand loyalty will keep a lot of people buying boutique stuff but I'm not sure a whole load of people would do too well in a blind comparison test with stuff that costs a fraction of the price. I think that the way TC have slashed prices probably indicates that they were charging what the market would bear but have noticed the quality of some of the cheap competition and have moved to protect their bit of the market before they lose it altogether.

[Delberthot]

I'm doing something similar. So far I have Behringer octave & phaser pedals that cost a grand total of £34 for both of them delivered from Amazon.

I've been looking for something like the Boss LS-2 for much cheapness so that I can mix the dry and effected signals but haven't managed to find anything yet - I know they go for around £50 delivered on the forum and EBay but I'm looking for something that costs half that new.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Delberthot

[basexperience]

I got the Mooer bitcrusher after a recommendation that it was a "true" bitcrusher (and not just a ring mod) but for a low low price. It's certainly been what I was looking for sound wise, and the alternatives I saw (including some truly eyewatering boutique ones) were impressive but massively over specified for what I needed.

I think you have a point - I'd wager the truly high-end will still make a living, boutique etc as they're in a different pay grade, so to speak. But you do have to wonder if your midrange producers (like BOSS) will get squeezed out...

[radiophonic]

The cheap end doesn't really innovate though. The only reason you can get a cheap-donkey bitcrusher is because somebody thought to make an expensive one that sold. I doubt it's that challenging technically, but you have to have the idea. I also think there are certain effects that are harder to do right - cheap reverbs can be proper nasty.  Guys like Digitech, Boss and TC who have access to all the Lexicon, Roland and Helicon algorithms are pretty safe for now I think. When it comes to overpriced Klon, Rat and Tubescreamer clones it's game over though. Or at least it should be. 

 

Edit: Donkey. Swear filter.

Edited October 20, 2018 by radiophonic

[The59Sound]

I just got hold of a Mosky Black Rat and it's genuinely, one of the best Rat circuit pedals I've ever played. 

[EliasMooseblaster]

On 08/10/2018 at 11:25, EliasMooseblaster said:

...instead of forking out £100, I could get a Chinese-made clone for <£30, which had TS9 and TS808 modes at the flick of a switch. (Obviously I won't know how good it is until it arrives, but other reviews have been quite positive...)

Well, it arrived last week, and I'm delighted with it. As far as my ear can judge, it does exactly what I expect a Tubescreamer to do. The difference between the 9 and the 808 is subtle but audible, and for less than £30 I couldn't be happier. That said...

 

On 20/10/2018 at 21:58, radiophonic said:

The cheap end doesn't really innovate though. The only reason you can get a cheap-donkey bitcrusher is because somebody thought to make an expensive one that sold.

...and of course, it is just another cheap clone of a circuit that's been around for somewhere in the region of 40 years. It's been copied and modded to buggery, so the existence of a cheap Chinese clone is hardly surprising. (Even the switch between the two modes isn't an innovation, as JHS have fully outdone them with the Byobu, which offers 9 different TS variants in one pedal!) It does what I want, but it does nothing new, much like my other economy-donkey pedals. If I were a serious effects enthusiast, I'd still be looking to the boutique makers for new ways to preen, squash and bend my sound.

[HazBeen]

Yes, this will all end and we will all be playing cheap Yammies or Ibbies as their cheap series are really good. We will also all drive Dacias.

No the fact that cheap brands make good pedals means that the mean average quality increases, boutique makers will still be responsible for all R&D and innovation that is then copied by the Behringers and Mooers of the world. If there is any threat, it will come from component bases modelling meaning DSP multis will sound as good as the original pedal. But like tube amps, there will be a niche for boutique I am sure.

Lastly comparing a Cali to Spectracomp or a Sub n Up to a T16 to me suggests we are comparing oranges with bananas.

Ask yourself the question: if budget and pedal board real estate was no issue, what would you buy? The Dacia? Really?

[Al Krow]

15 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

Ask yourself the question: if budget and pedal board real estate was no issue, what would you buy? 

Ah that dream land where pink things fly (untethered). Please let me know when it is happening and where I can find it? 😂

[HazBeen]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Ah that dream land where pink things fly (untethered). Please let me know when it is happening and where I can find it? 😂

So you agree.... unfortunately most of us are on a budget so need to decide what to best spend our cash on and we buy Dacias. But we like fat and trimmings so we get the 19” rims and audio upgrade. Bassists are just like real people.

[dannybuoy]

On 20/10/2018 at 21:58, radiophonic said:

The cheap end doesn't really innovate though. The only reason you can get a cheap-donkey bitcrusher is because somebody thought to make an expensive one that sold. I doubt it's that challenging technically, but you have to have the idea. I also think there are certain effects that are harder to do right - cheap reverbs can be proper nasty.  Guys like Digitech, Boss and TC who have access to all the Lexicon, Roland and Helicon algorithms are pretty safe for now I think. When it comes to overpriced Klon, Rat and Tubescreamer clones it's game over though. Or at least it should be. 

 

Edit: Donkey. Swear filter.

It is this way with some brands (e.g. Donner, AM Moon), you even see the same pedal rebranded several times. But a lot of them are seriously upping their game. Mooer, Hotone and TC have some really unique stuff. Hotone are about to release a Helix competitor too, that should be interesting!

Edited October 22, 2018 by dannybuoy

[radiophonic]

10 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

It is this way with some brands (e.g. Donner, AM Moon), you even see the same pedal re-branded several times. But a lot of them are seriously upping their game. Mooer, Hotone and TC have some really unique stuff. Hotone are about to release a Helix competitor too, that should be interesting!

Personally, I wouldn't lump TC in with Mooer or Hotone. To me, TC are are more of a Boss / Digitech /MXR competitor I'd say. Some (80s) heritage, some innovation but nothing super weird, mid market prices - especially since the recent drop.  Have Mooer or Hotone innovated? I think Mooer were the first mini-pedals I ever saw when I got back into playing. I remember being flabbergasted by the 'no batteries' angle. 

[dannybuoy]

Yeah, I agree on TC, they have kind of drifted into the discussion purely as a result of dropping their prices. They are one of the most innovative ones out there, just look at the Toneprint tech.

I think Hotone and Mooer started out with simple clones but have brought out more advanced stuff since then. E.g. Mooer cloned the EHX POG with their Tender Octave, I can only assume EHX must have proved they reverse engineered it and threatened action, as they discontinued it when it was one of their most popular products. A couple of years later they brought out a Pro version with now features and a new mini MkII, so I guess they figured out how to do it differently! They have a few other digital pedals that look like unique creations too.

Hotone have innovated quite a bit, they make the tiniest full tube amps going, even have full guitar amps in pedal format, and quite a bit on the stall modelling front.

[Al Krow]

So these clone merchants come in cheap as chips, generate sales and take market share, and then start coming up with some of their own products and start moving up the value chain.

I'd love to see a pedal format bass power amp. The closest we've come so far is the Sumo, right?

http://www.guitarsoundsystems.com/gss-1000w-sumo-guitar-bass-power-amp-c2x23791314

[dannybuoy]

The issue with bass use is the increased wattage needed. This one is a 75W guitar amp in a pedal:

Crank that to 500W and you'll need to add a fan, make it bigger, etc. Still it could be done, just look at the size of the Trace Elf!

[radiophonic]

There's a few for guitar (don't EHX make one?), but I doubt any would have the current needed for bass at anything above bedroom volume. I'm not sure how far a typical bass speaker's impedance drops when you start pumping that low B but, if HiFi/Studio gear is anything to go by, that nominal 8 Ohms could be more like 1 Ohm down at 40 Hz. That would take some major headroom. 

[The59Sound]

I tried my Orange Burst at war volume last night for the first time and for a £25 pedal, it definitely compares favorably with higher end 'boutique' pedals.  

[mcnach]

Since we're talking cheap pedals... how is this for an envelope filter? Tiny as well!

Donner Dynamic Wah.

£22 delivered. 

I bought one and it sounds really good on bass. It's very easy to set, with no volume differences, no low end loss, and it sounds just like your bass, but doing weird noises, as opposed to changing the tone completely like some do. My only gripe... I wish it did down-sweep too. I'd have bought two or three to have 'presets'

Love it on guitar too... this is a good review on guitar:

 

 

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, mcnach said:

Since we're talking cheap pedals... how is this for an envelope filter? Tiny as well! Donner Dynamic Wah. £22 delivered. 

I bought one and it sounds really good on bass. It's very easy to set, with no volume differences, no low end loss, and it sounds just like your bass, but doing weird noises, as opposed to changing the tone completely like some do. My only gripe... I wish it did down-sweep too. I'd have bought two or three to have 'presets'

I presume you would be using blu-tac to ensure that your presets are sure? 😂

[fretmeister]

As long as there are people who think they can hear the difference between battery brands the boutique pedal market will remain safe.

[micguy]

Behringer has been around for quite a while, and it didn't prevent Darkglass from rising up and creating a niche and some great products - yes, there will be low end clones forever, but the real innovators will always have a place as well.

[EliasMooseblaster]

14 hours ago, micguy said:

Behringer has been around for quite a while...

You could almost argue that Behringer represent a budget rival to a lot of products - *some* of their pedals sound as good as more expensive equivalents; *some* people find their BDI-21 an adequate substitute for a Sansamp; *some* of their bass amps sound surprisingly good; *some* of their microphones get rave reviews from recording engineers.

I stress the word "some," because there are plenty of "misses" to balance their "hits" - and when they miss, they really miss. Tech21, Markbass, Shure, etc., need not quake in their boots just yet.

[tonyclaret]

Valeton, never heard of them until now! Just checked out their Bass Dapper, the octaver sounds good compared to the tech 21! 

Edited October 27, 2018 by tonyclaret