Fender CS - No magic?

[Noisyjon]

I see the Bass Gallery has a CS Masterbuilt P/J in. Might have to go and check it out to see what’s what!

[EMG456]

I find this an interesting thread...

I'm not really a Fender kind of guy but I recognise their solid place in the history of the electric bass. That said, for whatever reason, I ended up gassing for Jazz Basses a few years back. Went into GuitarGuitar in Glasgow because they had a limited run CS 64 Jazz bass in Dakota red with a Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard. It *looked* terrific. the very helpful guy brought me a selection of Jazzes to try - the CS, Sadowsky, Lakland Darell Jones, and Squier VM.

The Custom Shop Jazz was a huge disappointment - clumsy, woolly sounding and generally unresponsive. It wasn't helped by a terrible setup which actually made it feel as if the bass had genuinely been lying around unloved since 1964 but I can usually see through those issues if the instrument shows promise. The Sadowsky was obviously good but a bit soul-less. There were two winners - the Lakland and the Squier and honestly, whilst they were different, they were both a joy to play and hear and I would have played either of them in any situation happily.

And this brings us to the nub of the matter. Leo Fender designed his instruments to be easily assembled by a largely unskilled labour force. An amalgamation of identically shaped parts of similar materials is as likely to be good or bad whether it is done in a factory in Indonesia or a (Custom Shop) factory in the US. And make no mistake - the sheer numbers of Fender Custom Shop instruments which are flooding into the UK (Multiply by all of  Fender's other international markets) makes it obvious that this is not the product of a nice, cosy workshop with a few talented luthiers hand crafting impeccable instruments, but rather a large volume, mass production facility. I'm not saying that Fender don't employ some truly excellent luthiers - they have a history of doing so - but the emphasis of effort in the Custom Shop is focused on finish and appearance. You're paying a lot of cash to have someone lovingly beat up your new guitar so that it looks old.

My Jazz Bass gas was fulfilled three times over at a fraction of the cost of a Fender Custom Shop instrument so I'm likely to be Custom Shop free for the foreseeable future - I just don't see the value in them - but of course people are attracted to instruments for many and varied reasons and make the choices that are right for them. And of course the appearance of some CS instruments can be very compelling...

[Beedster]

16 minutes ago, EMG456 said:

And this brings us to the nub of the matter. Leo Fender designed his instruments to be easily assembled by a largely unskilled labour force.

Absolutely, well put. This is why I build/use Fender-fit bitsas; I can simply source the bits that work best together at the same quality point but at a fraction of the price and risk of a CS instrument. The bass below cost less than £300 to build, but it sings, is extraordinarily versatile (helped by a Kiogon series/parallel circuit), and is a joy to play. It also allows me the non-Fender option of a Precision width neck on a Jazz Bass. Is it as good as a CS fretless jazz? I owned the(now ludicrously expensive) CS Jaco Relic, and this knocks the socks off it

 

[BigRedX]

31 minutes ago, EMG456 said:

And this brings us to the nub of the matter. Leo Fender designed his instruments to be easily assembled by a largely unskilled labour force. An amalgamation of identically shaped parts of similar materials is as likely to be good or bad whether it is done in a factory in Indonesia or a (Custom Shop) factory in the US.

Exactly.

For me it is difficult to see what benefit having your Fender assembled by custom shop luthier brings, especially when the design of the component parts is no different to the standard production-line models.

None of those classic, and now very valuable, instruments from the early days of production (pre-CBS) got any special treatment during the manufacturing process, and if anything modern production methods are far superior to what could be achieved with the 1940s technology that was originally used, so a modern Fender instrument off the production line should be a superior instrument.

Make you wonder if Fender are deliberately holding back on the quality of their other instruments, so that something out of the Custom Shop can be guaranteed to be better?

[martthebass]

14 hours ago, TheGreek said:

My "dislike" of Fender is heavily influenced from an experience in GigGear Harlow some years ago.

They had a genuine Fender and a Squier, to the untrained eye, the same bass. Both natural finish four strings. I played both..

The Squier was actually superior in fit and finish, the neck joint on the Squier was tight, a very good fit - you would have been pushed to fit a cigarette paper. The "real" Fender, on the other hand suffered from a poor fitting neck with a gap of "several" mm. Frets on the Squier were well finished, the Fender less so.

What shocked me was that the difference in price was over £1k, and in effect you were paying extra for the "less well built" item.

BC Members' often quote how their current J or P is "the best XXX I've ever played"...I can believe this. The build quality on Fenders has been erratic over the years - my memories of  70s Fenders leave me shuddering...misaligned bridges/pick ups, poorly finished and fitted necks and frets...in fact you couldn't rely on any of the parts to be correctly installed. Fender's reputation suffered because of the genuinely poor build quality.

This left the door open for other, smaller companies to elbow their way into the Bass market. As market leaders, Fender should never have done this.

If they had kept their eye on the ball we wouldn't have Overwater, Sei, Sadowsky, et al....From our point of view, their poor performance is our blessing.

 

I can still remember visiting a shop in Doncaster (that shall remain nameless) in the late eighties looking for a new US Jazz.  The guy in the shop was absolutely desperate to sell me one of the, must have been 10-15, 'roadworn' 1970s Jazz or P basses.  I tried each and every one of them and all were, to put it kindly, thrown together by gibbons in a dark room using bear skins and stone knives.  It still amazes me how much some of these sad examples (I totally accept that some examples however are sublime and would love the cash for Gary Mac's example which is currently on sale) now fetch but I suspect it's the image rather than the sound/construction that appeals in many of these cases.  

[Beedster]

14 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Make you wonder if Fender are deliberately holding back on the quality of their other instruments, so that something out of the Custom Shop can be guaranteed to be better?

No, because CS instruments are not guaranteed to be better instruments. Perhaps better materials and better finished, but that doesn't make for a better instrument. As you say, there was nothing special about the production of the holy grail pre-CBSs, and some of them were dogs as well (their dog-ness now offset by their value as antiques)

[bassbiscuits]

True. I've played some dogs of basses, and some lovely ones, and it has nothing to do with the price point.

I do think that CS instruments are certainly going to be made of better quality wood and components than cheap and cheerful Far Eastern ones, but that's not to say that a well-chosen (or in Beedster's case, well put-together) bass of any other heritage can't be just as good.

Part of me would love a CS Fender bass - if the quality matched the price then I'd consider it money well spent. But its inevitable that just like every other instrument, made of natural materials with their own inherent variability and different humans assembling them, there are going to be good, less good and awful ones.

[Lozz196]

Not Fender, but a mate of mine bought a Gibson Les Paul Custom and it was a rotten guitar. He bought it based on the playability and sound of my Les Paul Studio that I had, and he was really disappointed with the Custom, it just didn`t compare at all. It just shows that there can be rotters amongst all ranges - and stars too.

[Cosmo Valdemar]

3 hours ago, Beedster said:

Absolutely, well put. This is why I build/use Fender-fit bitsas; I can simply source the bits that work best together at the same quality point but at a fraction of the price and risk of a CS instrument. The bass below cost less than £300 to build, but it sings, is extraordinarily versatile (helped by a Kiogon series/parallel circuit), and is a joy to play. It also allows me the non-Fender option of a Precision width neck on a Jazz Bass. Is it as good as a CS fretless jazz? I owned the(now ludicrously expensive) CS Jaco Relic, and this knocks the socks off it

 

Lovely.

[deepbass5]

Now that i own a CS fender P bass i have to say the reason they have the potential to be better instruments is because of wood selection, good seasoned tone woods e.g quarter sawn neck blanks is where all the money is for me, I also have some custom made five strings they are good for the same reasons care in wood selection ,that when constructed with care will sound good.

It is sat beside me now - if i pick it up unplugged and play "My Girl" it is a 62 P bass, that sound is there unmistakable so has to be worth what you would pay a luthier to construct any bass for you circa £3K

Having owned a 77 P bass Oly white maple neck ( heavy with slight D dead spot) this is in a different league, so for me a quality controlled CS wins over say any 70's bass priced just because its getting old  

[MacDaddy]

On 09/10/2018 at 16:30, The59Sound said:

Went to GuitarGuitar today and played a CS Jazz relic by Master Builder someone or other...

Beautiful bass to look at - my favourite colour combo; candy apple red, tort pickguard and rosewood neck.

But upon playing and hearing it, it just feels and sounds like a normal Fender MIA Jazz in my humble opinion. It was priced at £3.2k... but in a blind test could have been any MIA Jazz to me.

I have played old Fenders that sound 'old' but this just looks old yet sounds modern.

Just me?

you weren't at the SE Bass Bash were you? 

[spencer.b]

On 10/10/2018 at 09:38, EMG456 said:

of course people are attracted to instruments for many and varied reasons and make the choices that are right for them. And of course the appearance of some CS instruments can be very compelling...

I've had in excess of 25 p basses I reckon, new and old fenders, tokai, squier JV and SQ , maruscyck , Lakland, Nash etc

I bought my CS cos it's really resonant and sounds amazing

[Japhet]

The whole CS thing has become a huge cash cow for Fender and I'm sure a huge number of them never get played. I've played a couple of CS Precisions and found both very disappointing with woolly sound and flat spots on the neck. The best sounding 'Precision' I've owned is my 84 Tokai which knocks both of the afore-mentioned CS's for 6.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Japhet

[chris_b]

I'm a Fender guy and always have been. A few years ago I played Clarky's CS Pino and liked it a lot. A very, very nice bass but unfortunately I don't play 4 string basses and IMO, Fender haven't yet hit the spot for me with any of their 5 strings. IMO if you want a 4 string workhorse Fender is the place to go. For anything else, shop around.

It doesn't surprise me to see that people have not had positive experiences with my favourite basses. That's preferences for you!!

From a 5 string perspective, it seems to me that my Mike Lull P and Sadowsky Jazz are basses Fender could only dream of making. Both these basses are a pleasure to play and make just about the best sound of any bass I've owned. Sadly, for my requirements, a Fender seems like a backwards step these days.

[bassbiscuits]

14 hours ago, deepbass5 said:

Having owned a 77 P bass Oly white maple neck ( heavy with slight D dead spot) this is in a different league, so for me a quality controlled CS wins over say any 70's bass priced just because its getting old  

Its a bit of an overgeneralisation to say a good CS bass is better than any 70's Fender bass.

I have a 1970 P which is light as a feather, resonant and beautifully put together, with a snug neck joint, lovely neck etc. I have no desire to swap it for a CS one...

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

I'm a Fender guy and always have been. A few years ago I played Clarky's CS Pino and liked it a lot. A very, very nice bass but unfortunately I don't play 4 string basses and IMO, Fender haven't yet hit the spot for me with any of their 5 strings. IMO if you want a 4 string workhorse Fender is the place to go. For anything else, shop around.

That`s the only CS bass I`ve ever played as well, Chris, and it was a cracker, easily the best Precision I`ve ever played. Quite why Clarky let that one go......

[Muzz]

As with any bass, it's a case of play it first. I bought a 78 Jazz unseen, and it was easily one of the worst basses I've ever owned. For the money, it was easily the worst ever.

[bubinga5]

I owned one of these once.. http://www.andybaxterbass.com/details.php?id=1130

There were only 100 made. Sounded ok. There was nothing special about it apart from CS logo on the back.A gap in the neck pocket I might add..  Ive played MIJ's that were just as good.. One of these now be north of £3000 easily. The MIJ 1975 RI non export was just as good.Cost me £600.  Think I traded the CS for a Sadowsky RV5 in the end. Im sure there are a lot of great Fender Custom Shop's out there out there. Its been said a thousand times before, there are makers that do the Jazz and P better than Fender, and consistently better. .  

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

That`s the only CS bass I`ve ever played as well, Chris, and it was a cracker, easily the best Precision I`ve ever played. Quite why Clarky let that one go......

Was mine for a while, and whilst it was nice, it wasn't £3,500 and better than anyting up to that price point nice. I've played MIJs that were as good. Of course, this, and related psychological factors are always at play......

 

[bubinga5]

BUT.. i stil want a Fender. 😂 This one to be precise. 74 AVRI. 

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by bubinga5

[spencer.b]

41 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Was mine for a while, and whilst it was nice, it wasn't £3,500 and better than anyting up to that price point nice. I've played MIJs that were as good. Of course, this, and related psychological factors are always at play......

 

Are you saying I think my bass sounds good cos it was expensive and it actually doesn't sound good?

I can honestly say I couldn't care less how expensive or prestigious an instrument is I'm solely interested in how they play and sound, I've got an old upright which as uprights go is cheap but it sounds great and cuts through and I use it all the time

I don't doubt you've heard mij basses that are as good CS, I have too and I've had some great bitsas, squiers etc as good as anything I've played , you can say there are other factors at play for your with your perception of instruments but there aren't for me

[Beedster]

42 minutes ago, spencer.b said:

Are you saying I think my bass sounds good cos it was expensive and it actually doesn't sound good?

I don't think I was referring to you specifically Spencer, no

But absolutely, for a lot of people, certainly myself included, knowing that something is certain age or type changes how we respond to it. Visual information can contribute significantly to how we perceive sound, taste, a whole range of things. We can probably un-train this effect - I've tried to over the years - but to a degree we're all susceptible to it. 

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

Was mine for a while, and whilst it was nice, it wasn't £3,500 and better than anyting up to that price point nice. I've played MIJs that were as good. Of course, this, and related psychological factors are always at play......

Good job I didn't make any comparisons or discuss the value.

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Good job I didn't make any comparisons or discuss the value.

That was its RRP not what I sold it for by the way

[spencer.b]

50 minutes ago, Beedster said:

I don't think I was referring to you specifically Spencer, no

But absolutely, for a lot of people, certainly myself included, knowing that something is certain age or type changes how we respond to it. Visual information can contribute significantly to how we perceive sound, taste, a whole range of things. We can probably un-train this effect - I've tried to over the years - but to a degree we're all susceptible to it. 

Fair enough mate, it's an interesting point, I'm certainly guilty of it with some things, I was recently riding 2 different MX bikes and the one I was smitten with basically cos it had the graphics like the one's I coveted as teenager  felt faster  yet the lap times proved otherwise

P basses though I feel like I'm pretty forensic about, but maybe that's just my perception!