Saddle mounted piezo and nylon tape wound strings

[Paul S]

I've just acquired a Dean Pace EUB that has saddle mounted piezo pickups as per (stock) pic. 

My choice would be to fit Roto Trubass strings to attempt to make it sounds slightly more acoustic bassy but, when I tried, a couple of the strings didn't make a proper connection and the volume across the strings was out of balance.  I subsequently remembered that this is an issue.  Does anyone know if there is a way around this - to my mind if some strings work ok then logically they all should be able to?  Or do I just need to forget using nylon tape wounds and carry on with the metal flats which work perfectly with no fettling.

Muchas gracias

Paul

[Paul S]

Looks like I have defeated the panel on this one!    A bit more trawling the interweb shows there is no real way around it.

I discovered the trim screws round the back - the bass was adjusted way down so I have it set differently now and it is less brittle.  Some folks advocate using an eq pedal too - the Behringer AD-121 seems to be a cheap option.

If I bond with the bass I might consider changing the electrics and get a strip piezo fitted underneath the bridge so I can use nylon tapes but that is another thing for another day.

[EssentialTension]

I've used black nylons, Roto and La Bella, with an under bridge piezo without separate saddles, with no problem.

I can't see why under separated saddles should make a difference unless separated saddles sit more or less firmly on the piezo depending on if they are lifted or lowered.

Metal not nylon, but I have found La Bella Deep Talkin' Flats 760FS standard gauge work well for 'acoustic bassy' tone.

[Paul S]

Thanks for that.  I believe the issue is with the tape winding preventing a good contact with the individual piezo.  This Dean is a 5er, which means the Trubass low B is pretty thick.  But strangely the D was also not making good contact.  But, as you say, nylon tapes are not a problem with a strip piezo - I have them fitted to my Stagg EUB - which is why I may consider fitting one to the Dean if I get along with it ok. 

As it happens it is a set of La Bellas that I have put on there at the moment and, yes, they are nice strings.  I think some work with the eq will help, too, to get the tone I am looking for - which is the tone I get with nylon tapewounds   

As an aside, I find it interesting to have both the Stag and the Dean Pace.  Both offer different pros and cons.  The main thing is that I am not trying to emulate the experience of playing a double bass, which seems to be the main sticking point with these cheaper EUBs.

[Maude]

I had LaBella white nylons on my Variax for a while, no issues with string to string volume difference that I noticed. 

[Matt P]

What gauges are the individual strings? It might be that the quiet strings are a bit too fat and aren't sitting down into the grooves and making proper contact. 

[Paul S]

48 minutes ago, Maude said:

I had LaBella white nylons on my Variax for a while, no issues with string to string volume difference that I noticed. 

Interesting - I'll look into that.

32 minutes ago, Matt P said:

What gauges are the individual strings? It might be that the quiet strings are a bit too fat and aren't sitting down into the grooves and making proper contact. 

They are 65, 75, 100, 115, 135.  But the grooves in the piezos are all the same size so that wouldn't really explain why the D string didn't connect properly.  The metal low B I have there at the moment is the same gauge as the Trubass B and works fine. 

[Bridgehouse]

I had a similar(ish) thing with my Shuker Fretless. 

I say ish, because my E was significantly quieter than the others when I refitted all the gubbins after swapping out the preamp etc. (see separate thread for whole long long story). 

However, It was clear that the issue was break angle - they were metal strings (TI's in fact) and the fact yours are nylons will make little difference. After all, a piezo works perfectly well under an acoustic saddle which is often plastic, bone etc.. 

I could reverse the saddles in mine, which I did, and it increased the break angle and gave a much stronger contact, and thus all strings balanced equally. Not the best photo in the world..

But hopefully you can see that the break angle is up a bit on the E string compared to the others, and it's sitting on the 'higher' side of the saddle for maximum contact - without the break angle there will be insufficient pressure exerted on the saddle for the piezo to work properly

[Matt P]

well i'm stumped then! @Bridgehouse has said pretty much what i was trying to get across, it's a pressure issue with the nylon strings, have you tried other nylon strings? it might be that another brand has a different composition of outer wrap that works better with the piezo saddles. Is this a fresh set or an old set? it might be that there is a flat spot on  the deader strings that is preventing proper contact?

 

Matt

[Bridgehouse]

3 minutes ago, Matt P said:

well i'm stumped then! @Bridgehouse has said pretty much what i was trying to get across, it's a pressure issue with the nylon strings, have you tried other nylon strings? it might be that another brand has a different composition of outer wrap that works better with the piezo saddles. Is this a fresh set or an old set? it might be that there is a flat spot on  the deader strings that is preventing proper contact?

 

Matt

That’s exactly the issue I had - the E was taken off and there was a clear kink where it went over the saddle - I straightened and put it back on the other way over to try to increase pressure - combined with reversing the saddle this worked well. I suspect a new string would be fine as well. 

[Paul S]

Thanks for this.  The saddles are this way around already but I could try raising the saddle height to increase the break angle.  I've since read somewhere that putting a little aluminium foil under the strings helps, too.  The strings are new.  I haven't tried any other brands but maybe that is a way forward as well - although it does start getting expensive!  Still, it is an itch that needs scratching...

[BassBod]

Doesn't sound like the problem is nylon, but more string diameter - there are some black nylons like the D'Addario set that are almost "normal sizes".  I use these on acoustic bass guitars (with acoustic guitar type under saddle piezo strips) and they work perfectly well.

[Paul S]

BassBod - as I said, the D string also didn't make a proper connection so the issue isn't string diameter - at least not solely.  I just had a look at the D'Addario black nylons - the low B is the same 135 gauge as the Trubass, perhaps strangely as the other strings are a lot finer in the set.  But, in any case, I am sure the Trubass would work fine if I had an under saddle piezo - this has saddle mounted individual piezos and is the issue here.

[Maude]

Could it just be the strings not putting enough pressure on the piezo elements to work properly? Piezo pickups for doublebass bridge wing slots are hopeless if not enough or too much pressure is put on them. Maybe your piezos are particularly sensitive to this. 

[Bridgehouse]

3 minutes ago, Maude said:

Could it just be the strings not putting enough pressure on the piezo elements to work properly? Piezo pickups for doublebass bridge wing slots are hopeless if not enough or too much pressure is put on them. Maybe your piezos are particularly sensitive to this. 

It’s exactly this - and commonly it’s break angle over them or at the nut. I have the issue only with TI Jazz Flats as they are lower tension...

[Paul S]

Thanks for this - I'll have a fiddle, raise the saddle height and see if it helps then perhaps reach a kind of compromise that doesn't leave the action too high.

[Paul S]

Well.  I've got them to work!  I wrapped some copper tape around the string where it makes contact with the piezo.  If anything it made the strings thicker, but also somehow improved contact with the piezo.  Maybe, because it was thicker, it increased the break angle?  Or maybe there was something about the copper tape.  I don't know, but it all works now.

Thanks all!

 

[Marc S]

Interesting Paul S. I hadn't realised you'd "strayed" into the world of upright bass. It's a slippery slope, which is fraught with further GAS induced moments, beware!

I'm not familiar with the Dean EUB myself, so I'm not sure what the piezo arrangement looks like.
It sounds like you've found an interesting solution though Paul - and I don't know why the copper tape would help.... except as you say, it bulks the strings out and may improve contact area...
Would another tape material work as well? Would it improve matters even more if you added even more copper tape?

I was going to suggest that the un-evenness might be due to the strings. I've found that on some DB's, certain string types just seem to be weaker on one string, more so than another
Try some different strings on the same bass - hey presto, it's much more even. I've found this more the case with lower tension strings on certain basses.
What is the tension like in those strings Paul?

[Paul S]

I've had a Stagg for a few years now, Marc, but just rarely had the opportunity to use it.  In fact I carried out some mods that made it better for me to play - mounted it on a tripod stand, moved the bridge tail end so it would take normal strings (some nice Innovation black nylon Psychobilly ones) etc.  Dusted it off once in a while but never really used it.

But now my little band are moving to doing some 'acoustic' gigs.  Drummer using brushes, guitards using acoustics, all much quieter - so it made sense for me to get back on the EUB horse again.  And as I have moved on to 5ers I managed to acquire this Dean Pace 5 so that it still feels familiar.  Although, tbh, I could get by with the Stagg and live without the low B easily enough. 

The Trubass strings are fairly high tension, I'd say, and with the copper tape the volume is now even enough across the strings for it not to notice.  I may stick some copper tape around all of them, just so it looks more even   But in terms of the feel and, more importantly, the sound this is now giving me what I want from it so I doubt I'll experiment any further.  I'll live with the Stagg and the Dean for a while, see which I favour, then move one or the other on.  Or, more likely, keep both for now.

GAS is always going to be a problem, though... I keep looking at NS design EUBs.... still, let's see how the acoustic thing works out first (or so i keep telling myself  ) 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Paul S