Fingers and the audience

[ped]

Time to address a couple of common ideas often spoken around these parts. The first was brought up in a recent thread and I see the second one a lot, too. Interested to hear your thoughts.

1. "Whatever bass you play, you'll sound like you'' / ''It's all in the fingers''

I suppose to a degree it's right - someone will recognise the style of playing of an individual regardless of what bass they play. A good example would be Victor Wooten playing that Sire jazz bass recently posted here. It sounds like him. BUT - I don't think it's even remotely true to say it doesn't matter what bass you buy, it's all in the fingers. Nobody can make a Precision bass sound like a Musicman just by the way they play. It's impossible. Maybe in front of an audience with poor monitoring and a poor bass sound it would be immaterial - we've all been there - but recorded, or properly monitored, it's obvious to me that basses sound completely different. Otherwise why would we even discuss them?

2. "It doesn't matter what you play (gear wise), the audience won't be able to tell the difference"

Maybe not. My mum can't even identify what sound is the bass. But is that a reason not to buy XYZ? Do we do it slavishly for the audience, or do we enjoy knowing our own sound works, and the nuances, even if known only to the player, are worth the journey? Would you be happy playing a really horrible - but adequate - sound as a bass player?  

[Teebs]

I agree with Point 1 - each individual has their own tonal 'fingerprint' (literally), from their physiology to their style of play - so it is all in the fingers (or pickstrum thingy). Another factor is that we all have good and bad days with the bass - some days I'll sound amazing (to my ear) and others I can't do a thing right! So maybe its also in the mind?

Regarding Point 2, I suspect that the audience don't care what the bass sounds like as long as its not too loud or harsh sounding, so the gear / backline / monitoring / PA is immaterial to them. We choose our own gear based on what we like regarding the sound, look or reputation; having equipment that we trust or have confidence in could help us with the 'in the mind' part of Point 1 - if its sounds good to the player, its one less thing to fret about at gigs, allowing more time for enjoying the moment.

Obviously though, if the equipment just doesn't function properly, its going to be stinky-poo!

*plus I like shiny things!

Edited October 16, 2018 by Teebs
GAS

[kyuuga]

Regarding number 2:

I always see that argument and to me it's just bollocks. Unless you're playing in a big band or a super loud Metal act where the bass is barely audible, tone matters a great deal in how the audience enjoys the sound. They may not know it, but it does. I could use the same argument for guitar/drums/etc: to a regular person who has no music knowledge and who is just watching a live show, every snare and hi-hat sounds the same...or so they think. I'm of the firm belief that besides being good at your instrument, having a great tone fit for the project you're playing in is a MUST. And it WILL make a huge difference.

Are you playing in a power trio à la Rush/Nirvana and your bass tone is extremely boomy with scooped mids? Then honestly I don't care how good your fingers are and how your slapping is off this world, to me you're just another average musician.

Are you playing in a blues-rock band with two guitarrists who like having those crunchy tones with your treble full on and a really hi-fi sound? You could have the best licks in the world but you're doing absolutely nothing there and the band's sound will be god damn awful without some low end booty to support it.

Those are just two examples but I could go on and on and on. Bass tone DOES matter and it's up to every single musician and band to know how to EQ their instruments in order to provide the best possible sound out of their songs. Otherwise, no matter how good your technique is, your sound will not be enjoyable and most people won't even know why but they WILL walk away.

[JellyKnees]

While it's true to some extent that no matter what instrument you play, you will always sound like you (with regards to character, phrasing or whatever), on a crappy bass (or even a good bass with crappy strings) you will never sound as good as you will on a decent quality, well strung instrument. All nuance and subtlety will be lost - a poor instrument will simply not be able to capture all the details that your fingers are (hopefully) producing. Of course this may depend entirely on what style of music you are playing - if you are plodding away on root notes to some three chord fuzz tone dirge, then there probably ain't much room for subtlety/nuance to begin with, so it undoubtedly matters a whole lot less...

I suspect this also applies for point 2, i.e. audiences for different types of music will have different levels of awareness as to how good the overall sound of the band (including the bass) is, and will also give/not give a solitary flying fornicate to wildly varying degrees...

[cheddatom]

Players have styles, basses have tones, and then there's a bit of a crossover between the two meanings. For example if a player always plays by the bridge, they will always have a more middly tone than a player that always plays over the neck. That's both a tone and a style thing and comes from the player BUT playing by the bridge on a jazz bass will still produce a different tone to the same player playing by the bridge on a precision

Then you have the amp and EQ etc.

 

RE point 2 - "feedback" is really important. For you to be able to play at your best, you have to have a sound that inspires you, and you have to be able to hear what the other musicians are doing, so of course it's important to have the right gear

[chris_b]

17 minutes ago, ped said:

Time to address a couple of common ideas often spoken around these parts. . . .

"It's all in the fingers" is short-hand for, "It's you that makes the difference". It really doesn't matter if you play a Precision, Musicman or double bass. OK, there are "rules", ie you don't see many double basses in Metal, but a good bass player will sound good on any instrument. What do others want from a bass guitar? That it don't sound bad. That's it!

More important than your sound is that your timing is good/perfect, you play interesting lines, you groove/swing/rock and that you remember the arrangements. The sound of different basses? That's personal preference and not a "thing" to anyone else but you.

I think most audiences do notice bass players. There is a sliding scale of recognition but the bass is heard by most people. I get comments about my 5 string bass everywhere I go, so lots notice more than you think. Some of them will actually be bothered to walk across the room and tell you. As a bass player you'll play better if you are happy and that will contribute to a happy band. A happy band will make better music and the audiences will always/usually notice and appreciate that. 

I rate airlines on their price and service, so basically the cabin crew and the entertainment on the plane. I never think about the guys who service the plane or the ones up front doing the steering and landing. That's bass playing and why the rhythm section is called the engine room.

[12stringbassist]

1. "Whatever bass you play, you'll sound like you'' / ''It's all in the fingers''

I find that I tend to sound like me, whatever bass I am playing - I impose my sound on the bass to a degree.

2. "It doesn't matter what you play (gear wise), the audience won't be able to tell the difference"

Whatever bass I play, I play it to please myself. The audience may just hear a bass noise. I have had a few people walk up to me and say 'I knew that was a Rickenbacker as soon as I walked in', but I think they knew as soon they actually saw it. At the moment I am favouring a Player series P over everything else and it's just such a solid sound. I set up my sound for myself first of all, to fit in with the band mix, so it sounds like a bass should. So, going by that thinking, the audience should maybe not be able to tell what bass it is I'm playing just by listening?

[Phil Starr]

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

I had to look that up

It's all in the fingers? Well that's metaphorical fingers surely, it's fingers plus everything between the ears and the fingers including the years of practice. It's going to be pretty obvious that someone playing a poorly set up cheap bass with a warped neck and twenty year old strings through an underpowered 1x15 combo is going to sound different to someone playing a nicely set up £2,000 bass played through top equipment. At some point the shortcomings might be enough to make me sound better than someone who actually knows their way around the fretboard. Most of us work somewhere in the middle though where the differences aren't so obvious, I doubt that anyone other than the bassist is going to notice the difference between a top range Squier P bass and a mid range Fender, or if we go for a 2x10 over a couple of 12's.

 

As to whether it matters, well of course it does, it may not be obvious to everyone in the room but would my band sound better if Flea, James Jamerson or Victor Wooten replaced me, of course they would. Everything we do affects what the rest of the band play so the accumulated effects are far greater than just how good is our timing or was that an interesting fill. Just you and the drummer working well together will get most people in the audience talking about how tight the band sounds, and probably get more of them up dancing. The audience though is made up of individuals, often in different stages of inebriation. I've rarely played a pub and not had at least one person come up and say they are a musician, There are people there who love music and appreciate it well done and others who are just out to have fun in a busy pub and their levels of appreciation are going to vary. The psychology of groups is interesting and my guess is that the difference between a great gig and an ordinary one is quite slight. Carrying an extra four or five people with your performance will create an atmosphere the rest of the room will pick up on, so it pays us to care about the details. I know nothing about acting but when a moment or a delivered line stands out in a play or a film I suspect it's because all the people in the room at the time from lighting engineer to actor got their bits of detail right. We have to care about the bits we can control and I suspect it's the human condition in all walks of life, we all have an inner nerd and we should be proud of it.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Phil Starr

[Graham]

From the blind test at the recent SE Bass Bash, it's clear that most basses sound similar and I'd say the easiest thing to identify was if it was strung with rounds or flats

I think the nuances in tone - this bass has a bit more mids, that one a little less treble, benefits us as players a lot more than the audience. They probably hear bass as inaudible, boomy/muddy or good; where good means a lot of different things to different people, mostly down to the context of the band in question.

So, a bass that sounds good to us, is likely to help us play better, as if we like the tone, we're generally happier and more relaxed with the playing.

That's got to be the reason for the endless quest that is GAS, find the bass that fits your hand perfectly and where the tone at the point you hear it, makes you happy. These are things that make an instrument inspiring. 

[Machines]

There is a difference between the style of the player and the notes played, to the sound of the bass. In the same way 2 people could recite the same sentence in the same tonality, but it will sound different.

 

[Nicko]

Clearly some of it is in the fingers, but my belief is the vast majority is in the setup.  As a player in a covers band I'm normally trying to emulate someone elses tone anyway, and play maybe 30-40% of my set with a pick.  The pick I choose, and where I play makes a bit of difference.

Does the audience notice if I back the tone off to get the sound I want.  Probably not.  Would they notice a difference if I play my backup bass (which incidentally is a more expensive bass but sounds worse in the mix to my ears)?  No.  Would they notice if I played the wrong passing note.  Only if they were bass players. Would they notice if I was out of time with the drummer.  Yes.

[musicbassman]

4 minutes ago, Graham said:

From the blind test at the recent SE Bass Bash, it's clear that most basses sound similar and I'd say the easiest thing to identify was if it was strung with rounds or flats

- so maybe at the next Bass Bash, instead of a range of basses there should be just ONE bass - but with half a dozen different competent bass players all playing the same line on it - maybe some standard like a Motown or Stevie Wonder line - then we'll see how much difference there can be just between fingers...

[Graham]

1 minute ago, musicbassman said:

- so maybe at the next Bass Bash, instead of a range of basses there should be just ONE bass - but with half a dozen different competent bass players all playing the same line on it - maybe some standard like a Motown or Stevie Wonder line - then we'll see how much difference there can be just between fingers...

Interesting idea, I like it

[chris_b]

You can get a degree from music college, play the cleverest lines and sound amazing with your great boutique gear. You can agonize over how Geddy Lee got this sound or that sound, but most bands (well most that I know) will give the gig to a bass player who sounds and plays good enough and who sings.

[chris_b]

25 minutes ago, musicbassman said:

- so maybe at the next Bass Bash, instead of a range of basses there should be just ONE bass - but with half a dozen different competent bass players all playing the same line on it - maybe some standard like a Motown or Stevie Wonder line - then we'll see how much difference there can be just between fingers...

That's got to be in the schedule for 2019.

[discreet]

Whether it's in the fingers, or you have good or indifferent bass gear, one of the main (and overlooked) elements regarding how you sound is how everyone else in your band sounds. It's no good being the world's best bass player if you're in a band with the world's worst drummer or the UK's loudest guitarist. Whether or not you're heard and appreciated is also down to how other people play - do they listen, are they selfish, do they leave space in the music, do they have good timing and groove? Some people (even when playing covers) will fill every nanosecond with noise, so ultimately you can't hear anything much and whether you're a good bass player or not and whether you have good gear or not becomes moot.

Edited October 16, 2018 by discreet

[4000]

1 hour ago, ped said:

Time to address a couple of common ideas often spoken around these parts. The first was brought up in a recent thread and I see the second one a lot, too. Interested to hear your thoughts.

1. "Whatever bass you play, you'll sound like you'' / ''It's all in the fingers''

I don't think it's even remotely true to say it doesn't matter what bass you buy, it's all in the fingers.

2. "It doesn't matter what you play (gear wise), the audience won't be able to tell the difference"

Maybe not. My mum can't even identify what sound is the bass. But is that a reason not to buy XYZ? Do we do it slavishly for the audience, or do we enjoy knowing our own sound works, and the nuances, even if known only to the player, are worth the journey? Would you be happy playing a really horrible - but adequate - sound as a bass player?  

1. Last week I was in the Gallery and I played a whole bunch of basses, as I always do. Other than my own bass, taken in for a minor repair, only one bass produced a sound that I could work with (a Nate Mendel P Bass, for those who are interested). If it was all in the fingers, that wouldn't have been the case at all. I do think that I don't impose a sound on an instrument though, maybe because I play very lightly. I also tend to play differently on different basses as their differing sonic footprints push me in different directions. There are many instruments that I would avoid for much of my playing for instance, simply because they have no real heft in the upper register.

2. I play for me first, audience second.

 

[4000]

5 minutes ago, discreet said:

Whether it's in the fingers, or you have good or indifferent bass gear, one of the main (and overlooked) elements regarding how you sound is how everyone else in your band sounds. It's no good being the world's best bass player if you're in a band with the world's worst drummer or the UK's loudest guitarist. Whether or not you're heard and appreciated is also down to how other people play - do they listen, are they selfish, do they leave space in the music, do they have good timing and groove? Some people (even when playing covers) will fill every nanosecond with noise, so ultimately you can't hear anything much and whether you're a good bass player or not and whether you have good gear or not becomes moot.

Actually, this touches on something that's very important to me, and seems less important to others. The overall sound that a band produces is very important to me; i.e. how the instrument sounds fit together to create the whole. I'll take Deep Purple as an example. I love the sound of Deep Purple mark 2 circa Made In Japan; John Lord, Roger's overdriven Ric, Ritchie's trademark guitar sound and Ian Paice's drumming. Now, move that on to the last incarnation and you've got similar enough keys, the same drummer, the same bassist, but it doesn't work remotely as well for me. Why? Because Ritchie's guitar sound and Roger's overdriven Ric sound are no longer there.The SOUND of the band is no longer the same. They could all play the same notes, but I just don't find the noise they're producing anywhere near as enjoyable. Chic are another example. Bernard's actual sound and how it fits into the sound of the band, just as much as the notes he plays, is one of the things I love about Chic. Use a different sound and for me the thing I love about the band may just fall apart.   

[chris_b]

7 minutes ago, 4000 said:

1. Last week I was in the Gallery and I played a whole bunch of basses, as I always do.

2. I play for me first, audience second.

I would like to hear the thoughts of someone who was listening. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'll always prefer to hear impartial opinions when I'm dealing with comparisons involving my playing.

We all do that. Many musicians, great and not so great, ignore the audience but most only get away with that because the rest of the band doesn't.

[4000]

9 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I would like to hear the thoughts of someone who was listening. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'll always prefer to hear impartial opinions when I'm dealing with comparisons involving my playing.

We all do that. Many musicians, great and not so great, ignore the audience but most only get away with that because the rest of the band doesn't.

I ask for opinions from people all the time, and even when I don't they often comment on the differences. The most telling was from a band member "I don't know why you keep bringing all these other basses to rehearsal because that one (my main Ric) sounds miles better than them all", and an equally telling "that Jazz sounds terrible, really thin and nasal". I've only ever once had a response "I can't tell the difference", and he's now deaf as a post. ;-)

I tend to think that if you can't tell the difference then you're either not listening or you have cloth ears. ; -)

Did I say I ignore the audience? No, I didn't. But I put myself first, because audience reaction is always arbitrary.

 

 

[Linus27]

1. "Whatever bass you play, you'll sound like you'' / ''It's all in the fingers''

For me I think its down to technique, approach, personality and this then comes out in your fingers, regardless of how you play. Some have a light touch, some dig in, some brush the strings etc. We all have our own style and this comes out in our playing. Another basschat member popped round my house to collect a bass once. We spent an hour or so talking and playing the various basses I own. One thing that came out of it was how I played. When the other person played one of my basses, I thought it sounded really good. Then when I played, it was very evident the difference in my style and technique. My notes were more balanced, even in volume, attack and sustain and generally a lot smoother. The other person, played with more urgency and attack. No way was better than the other and maybe tonally very similar but the output was evidently different.

2. "It doesn't matter what you play (gear wise), the audience won't be able to tell the difference"

With the exception of musicians in the audience or music lovers, I think the overall package is more important. Did the band sound good, were they tight, were they entertaining, did I like them and feel engaged. Perhaps the only musician who will come under the spotlight more will be the singer because this is who the average punter is focusing on, the rest is as I say, did the music sound good, did they entertainment. They will go away thinking, the band were good, average or terrible. This can be down to the sound being poor, the band playing terrible or just not liking the music. The details of did the bass tone sound amazing, did the snare sound epic and the guitar solos make you cry are less critical with maybe the exception to the singer as the overall sound is the deciding factor.

That's my thoughts on the subject

[stingrayPete1977]

Different maybe, right or wrong no way. 

If you play motown on a Status with the treble flat out, so what? 

[martthebass]

4 hours ago, ped said:

 

2. "It doesn't matter what you play (gear wise), the audience won't be able to tell the difference"

Maybe not. My mum can't even identify what sound is the bass. But is that a reason not to buy XYZ? Do we do it slavishly for the audience, or do we enjoy knowing our own sound works, and the nuances, even if known only to the player, are worth the journey? Would you be happy playing a really horrible - but adequate - sound as a bass player?  

So many variables Ped.  Some gigs I play a very nice Ray which I think sounds great on stage and off, whereas other gigs I play a Mustang which is far less distinct and wooly to my ears.  The drummer's partner, who comes to most gigs much prefers the Mustang - so she can tell the difference but disagrees with the assessment of the player. 

The venue is also a massive factor - different pub, different sound.....and can't always be fixed by the soundman or the bass/amp combination. 

[Guest aDx]

I I sometimes use a pick....  Oh dear!

[SubsonicSimpleton]

4 hours ago, ped said:

 ''It's all in the fingers'' the audience won't be able to tell the difference"

Well at the next bass bash you could organise a blind audience fingering and get answers.