Fingers and the audience

[FinnDave]

1 minute ago, MoJo said:

Very true, but whatever bass I'm using, I'll EQ the amp to best match the sound that I have in my head.

Exactly this. I don't want to sound different, just to sound the way I want to sound. 

[Frank Blank]

The thing is we are trying to isolate 'tone' or a 'sound' when the contributing factors are so myriad any variation to any of them makes a difference. It's like a Venn intersection of loads of factors, obviously at the coarse end of these are things like which bass, which amp, plectrum or fingers, fretted or fretless but then there are factors like the shape and acoustics of the room, age of the strings, then you get into real subjectivity land, your mood, are you on a ley line, etc. Obviously most people on here are experts, the best sort of experts imho, genuine enthusiasts, but I genuinely don't think there is an answer, which is fine, unless we are seeking some sort of definitive method of categorising 'tone', 'sound' or 'feel'. At the Bass Bash I stayed away from the amp test and the blind bass test because, frankly, I didn't think I would have had a clue but it didn't surprise me that most people couldn't tell the basses apart nor the amps, I think most of the variation is in us rather than the equipment.

I buy basses purely on their sound and feel acoustically, even electric basses. I don't know if this is 'right' or 'correct' but they have to feel right to me. I was then always disappointed when I amplified them because nothing ever seemed to get near to a) the sound I liked acoustically or b) reflected the feel I wanted from an amplified bass. This is because (unknown consciously) I had a a priori bass sound/feel template in my head and nothing matched it so I spent years trying out basses, other instruments, amps, all sorts of stuff but because I was a gear/tech novice I followed other people's ideas and recommendations, which, ultimately, is fruitless. Had I just sat back for a minute and analysed certain things, my small hands, how much I dug Mick Karn perhaps I would have tried out a short scale acoustic fretless years ago but, slavishly, I ignored my own heart and bought great big fenders and played them through great big TC Electronic rigs and wondered why throwing money about made no difference. Rob Allen Fretless Mouse / AER Basic Performer, five years ago if you said that was going to be my dream setup I'd have laughed.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Frank Blank
Furtherissimo

[Bridgehouse]

Just now, FinnDave said:

Exactly this. I don't want to sound different, just to sound the way I want to sound. 

I must admit, I don't get the whole "making one bass sound like another"..

I have my own style of playing - it comes through on whatever bass I play. 

But, I relish the idea of different basses sounding different. I like my P basses with their mid-hump, I like my Shuker with it's blend of piezo and jazz and a through-board that gives it a massive low end sustain, I love my ACG for sounding punchy live, and I love the fact that I have a 51P with a ric-o-like pickup in, specially wound for me which sounds clanky and clangy. 

With each one, I like trying them through different amps, pedals and modellers - and adjusting it to sound the way I want to sound

 

If everyone else in the band either says nothing, or gives me the odd "nice bass tone" then I know I'm in the right place. The guitarist in our band also plays bass. I know I've hit the spot on one particular song where I play a big fat sustained low G and octave G above. If it's bang on sound wise then he will glance over and give me an "oooooooooh mmmmmmmm" face which means "yeah, that's the stuff...."

[discreet]

25 minutes ago, 4000 said:

Maybe this is the crux of the issue. I use a specific bass for its sound and the way it makes me play, I don't try to impose myself on it.

I don't impose myself either, my bass is what it is. When I play it, it sounds like me playing a bass. Plus, I don't want to keep multiple basses. It's just not my thing.

[Frank Blank]

50 minutes ago, peteb said:

And with good reason…

Surely everything in the chain from you striking a note to it reaching the listener’s ears has an effect on the end sound / tone / whatever. This can range from a tiny effect (like what lead you use) to a massive one (roundwound or flatwound strings). The biggest impact on the sound is how you strike the string i.e. your fingers (both left and right hand of course). This is because: a) the inherent tonal quality of your fingers is unique to you and; b) this is the first stage of generating the note and therefore impacts on everything further down the chain.

I would have thought that most people, if they really tried, could tell the difference between a Stingray and a Jazz. But if I play a Stingray or a Jazz, it certainly sounds noticeably different, but it still sounds like me playing a Stingray or a Jazz. Similarly, if you were to get up and sit in with my band and play through my gear with the same settings, you won’t sound like me, but like you playing through my rig.

I think that the main reason that people can’t seem to be able to tell the difference is that they simply don’t care. A Stingray and a Jazz may well sound a bit different, but the chances are that you will be able to get a tone from either of them that will work with virtually all types of music that use an electric bass guitar. There are hundreds of good bass sounds available (and even more bad ones) and as long as the bass sounds good I don’t think that anyone who isn’t on Basschat, the odd recording producer or an overly fussy band leader really cares. This is very different to an instrument like a guitar, which works in a register that people hear more clearly and really defines the sound of the music the band are playing. Van Halen and SRV each have / had great, iconic rock guitar sounds, but Eddie’s ‘brown’ sound would not have worked on SRV’s albums any more than Stevie’s would have worked on Running With The Devil…! 

^ This. Jeez, I just spent ages posting something very similar to this only you've put it a lot better...

[Ghost_Bass]

1 hour ago, 4000 said:

(...)

Would anyone say that someone when playing a Hammond has the same actual sound as when they're playing a piano, simply because it's the same person playing it? That someone playing a Strat, clean, has the same actual sound as when playing a Les Paul through a cranked Marshall, even when playing the same notes?

(...)

Been catching up on older posts and this one drew my attention, brought a nice memory to my mind.

I played with a guitarist (jazz school) who always loved and played with a Les Paul. We were on a Funk/Soul project so that dark, bass-heavy tone he liked getting out of his guitar wasn't blending very well with the rest of the band (it was briliant for jazz though). After me and the drummer constantly complaining to him about this issue he decided to take our advice and bought a telecaster thinline, we were extatic when he took it out of the box in front of us. We allowed him a bit of rehearsal time to setup properly and in the end he sounded pretty much like he was still playing that dreaded Les Paul... we had a laugh on his expense and proceeded to turn off the Low knob in his amp (after first gig he realized we were right about the tone and said he liked it better than the previous one).

[cetera]

My band tell me that my Spectors sound fabulous.....
Now, if I was to believe it's all in the fingers then it's ME who sounds fabulous! Happy days!! 😎😁🏆
I'd say it's more 50/50 though. Me playing an e.g. SG bass wouldn't sound as good in our band context.

[mikel]

4 minutes ago, cetera said:

My band tell me that my Spectors sound fabulous.....
Now, if I was to believe it's all in the fingers then it's ME who sounds fabulous! Happy days!! 😎😁🏆
I'd say it's more 50/50 though. Me playing an e.g. SG bass wouldn't sound as good in our band context.

To another bassist possibly not, but I bet my house the regular gig goer would not notice a thing. To most a bass sound is just that, as long as its not too loud.

[kusee pee]

I've gigged and rehearsed with about ten different basses in my current band over hundreds of gigs/sessions. Not one band member or punter has ever noticed the difference 😞😞

[Frank Blank]

8 minutes ago, kusee pee said:

I've gigged and rehearsed with about ten different basses in my current band over hundreds of gigs/sessions. Not one band member or punter has ever noticed the difference 😞😞

That must have taken an age asking every one of them!

[FinnDave]

22 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

That must have taken an age asking every one of them!

It would take less time asking every member of the audience than it would asking every member of the band in some of the places I've played in!

[Guest MoJo]

12 hours ago, kusee pee said:

I've gigged and rehearsed with about ten different basses in my current band over hundreds of gigs/sessions. Not one band member or punter has ever noticed the difference 😞😞

Full of joy, I took a new active ‘Premium’ Ibanez BTB1605 bass to rehearsal. Previous bass was a Yamaha BB414. At the end of the evening, I asked the guitarist and the drummer , “What do you think? Do you think it suits the band, the tone I mean?” The reply was not the “Wow! That sounded great. The clarity and definition was really noticable,” that I had expected, but rather a lukewarm  “Sounded fine to me. You always get a good sound, whatever you’re playing.” I’ve gone through all manner of active and passive basses while I’ve been with these guys and had they all been the same colour, I don’t think that they would have noticed I’d changed my bass

[chris_b]

3 hours ago, MoJo said:

“Sounded fine to me. You always get a good sound, whatever you’re playing.”

Over the years I've asked several people about various new basses I've bought. The reply I usually get is, "It sounds good. It sounds like you". When the penny drops you realise that all anyone wants from any band member is that they buy their rounds, don't sound bad and play good stuff. . . . and no one really cares how they do it.

I had a boring 15 mins when a drummer was telling me the difference between snare drums, wood, brass etc. All I knew was he sounded great and I loved what he played in the songs we did.

[peteb]

11 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Over the years I've asked several people about various new basses I've bought. The reply I usually get is, "It sounds good. It sounds like you". When the penny drops you realise that all anyone wants from any band member is that they buy their rounds, don't sound bad and play good stuff. . . . and no one really cares how they do it.

I had a boring 15 mins when a drummer was telling me the difference between snare drums, wood, brass etc. All I knew was he sounded great and I loved what he played in the songs we did.

I was recently playing a few months of deps for an R&B band while their regular bass player recovered from some medical treatment. As I was playing in a different type of band and using a new rig, I started bringing pretty much every bass that I owned to see how they worked. Of course I asked the rest of the band (well mainly the guitar player and the original bass player, who came to some of the gigs, even though he wasn't well enough to play) what they thought of each bass. They would happily discuss the merits of each bass, but essentially thought that they all sounded great (the guitarist's favourite seemed to whichever bass I had just done the gig with). 

The truth is that they were happy with any decent bass sound, even though they were quite aware of the differences in each one. Now I have come across one or two band leaders who are hung up upon a particular bass (usually a Precision), but that is pretty rare... 

[dave_bass5]

On 16/10/2018 at 10:48, ped said:

2. "It doesn't matter what you play (gear wise), the audience won't be able to tell the difference"

Maybe not. My mum can't even identify what sound is the bass. But is that a reason not to buy XYZ? Do we do it slavishly for the audience, or do we enjoy knowing our own sound works, and the nuances, even if known only to the player, are worth the journey? Would you be happy playing a really horrible - but adequate - sound as a bass player?  

Ive always found this to be rubbish, based on the fact that a lot of musicians go to gigs, and therefore would be interested in the sound. I get the idea of the quote, and for the non musical general public it may well be true, but audiences are a mixture of both IME.

[jazzyvee]

I think most of these top bass players we listen to we can identify not just because of their tone but also, or even more so, because of their style of playing, their licks attack, dynamics and their note choices etc not just tone. So Victor could play any bass from a Sire to a Fodera and anything in between and even though the tone may be different on each bass, subtly or radically. If we were familiar with Victor's playing style we could determine it was him playing or someone playing in a Victor Wooten style.  Whether you could identify the bass he is playing would depend on your experience with knowing the sound of that bass. 

As an example I went to see Level 42 last night and Mark King sounded like Mark King not because of his tone but because of how he plays. The last time I saw him in live the 80's he would have most likely been playing a Jaydee or even an alembic. Now I would suggest hardly of the audience except maybe some bass players would have noticed he'd got a different bass than the last time they saw him there a couple of years back. Would they care? I doubt it as long as they heard the overall sound and it sounded like they expect level 42 to sound like.  

 

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

Ive always found this to be rubbish, based on the fact that a lot of musicians go to gigs, and therefore would be interested in the sound. I get the idea of the quote, and for the non musical general public it may well be true, but audiences are a mixture of both IME.

This is true. If there is a musician in the audience and you are playing like you don't care, you have probably lost networking and gig opportunities. Always give 101% even playing to one man and a dog. . . you never know who's listening in the other bar.

I've been asked to join every band I've been in since 1985. I've picked up every gig and band because a band member suggested me or a band leader dropped in and thought I would fit into his band. So how you sound is important but how you play is even more important.

Every gig is a potential introduction to more players.

[Muzz]

An extreme example, and it's an anecdote I've repeated before, but this one surprised me: in our originals band, we had a couple of songs which were kinda atmospheric (cue the 'OOOoooOOOooos...I knowwww), and I'd thought about it a good deal, and picked up a 12-string bass to use for them. We went through them in rehearsal, and after we'd run through the set, over a coffee, I said

"So, whaddya think about the new bass?"

Cue shrugs and non-committal, "S'OK, sounds fine" type of responses. These are seasoned, talented musicians we're talking about here, not Yer Average Pub/Function Punter.

Now, I wasn't expecting to be carried shoulder-high from the rehearsal rooms to a chorus of cheers and have a street named after me, but even so I was surprised. Seeing the rather tragic shape my face was assuming, the BL said "Don't worry about it so much; it sounds great, but it's just the bass..."

Edited October 18, 2018 by Muzz

[chris_b]

15 minutes ago, Muzz said:

I'd thought about it a good deal, and picked up a 12-string bass to use for them.

Same here. I bought a Rob Allen fretless (lovely bass) which I thought would be a good fit for 2 of my bands. Good for the rock and roll band as they were used to double bass players. I asked the band leader after the first gig and he said, "Sounds good, but I preferred your precision!" 

I also used it with the acoustic duo and just got a "remind me what exactly was different?" reaction.

Cue sale of one hardly used bass and back to what I usually do.

[Muzz]

Yes. You will not be surprised to learn I no longer own the 12-string. 😕🙂

[tauzero]

On 17/10/2018 at 12:15, itsmedunc said:

If I reflect on how many basses, amps, cabs and comb's I've owned over the years, then the only sensible conclusion I can make is - all bass gear is adequate and I'm looking for something that does not exist! 

I don't have to bother buying combs any more.

There was (and maybe still is) a website on which you could listen to a bit of music played on a P, a J, and a Stingray (might have been something else too) and try and identify which bass was which. I could, but only because I could make the comparison. Perhaps I'm cloth-eared. I know that the sound I get from my Warwicks (now disinterred and pressed back into action) is a complex one, but I can only hear that when I'm listening to the bass absolutely on its own with as little as possible extraneous noise. Indeed, any twin pickup bass (with both pickups going) is going to give a more complex sound than a single pickup, simply by the physics of the whole thing, but you'll never be able to hear the subtle nuances once the drummer piles in.

I'm with those who have responded and said that it's not so much the tone that's in your fingers, it's your style. Two players playing an assortment of different basses will sound the same relative to each other on each bass, though each player won't sound the same in absolute terms on every bass.

[arthurhenry]

Sometimes I can count the members of the audience on my fingers.

[mikel]

On 18/10/2018 at 15:27, chris_b said:

This is true. If there is a musician in the audience and you are playing like you don't care, you have probably lost networking and gig opportunities. Always give 101% even playing to one man and a dog. . . you never know who's listening in the other bar.

I've been asked to join every band I've been in since 1985. I've picked up every gig and band because a band member suggested me or a band leader dropped in and thought I would fit into his band. So how you sound is important but how you play is even more important.

Every gig is a potential introduction to more players.

Well quite, but playing mid range or beginner gear does not prevent you from giving 100% or sounding good.

[chris_b]

17 minutes ago, mikel said:

Well quite, but playing mid range or beginner gear does not prevent you from giving 100% or sounding good.

I totally agree, but I'm not sure I was implying anything like that. The post you quoted purposely didn't mention gear at all.

 

[MoonBassAlpha]

On 19/10/2018 at 20:29, arthurhenry said:

Sometimes I can count the members of the audience on my fingers.

I don't believe you!

 

...as if bass players can count....