Fender Survey - women now 50% of customer base...

[drTStingray]

17 hours ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

I can't make up my mind on whether that's good news (i.e. Yay! More women play an instrument!) or bad news (Woman goes into guitar shop, is steered towards a Fender, buys it because she isn't geeky enough to know there are lots of better choices).

(I quickly lost count of the number of times I went into a shop while first-bass-hunting, my only requirement being 'suitable to petite player with small hands', and was offered a frigging Fender Jazz! 😮 Luckily I did know better.)

I feel your pain with that - a few years back I was trying out rigs in a large store on the south coast - using my Fretless - and was astonished how people buying starter basses for kids were being wheeled over to the Squier/Fender stuff.

As you say, probably not the best thing for small hands (though I'm minded Suzy Quattro's main bass has been a 57/58 Precision given her by her dad - which she wasn't allowed to appear with in the early 70s for aesthetic reasons - something to do with a manager's/producer's whim apparently).

However you can see why as Fender historically has required dealers to buy in bulk (units of 10 or 20 at a time - and little choice of what some of the product is) so you can see why the salesmen want to get rid of them!!! That is why there are walls of them in many shops that sell them. Plus they're popular up to a point. 

As you say there's been better stuff around (actually since the 60s really) 👍

 

 

[dmccombe7]

13 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Prove it. You can't. Pwned.

Anyway, this drummer. Later on I found myself in a blues rock outfit fronted by a female guitarist and needing a drummer. I mentioned I knew someone but as soon as the word 'she' was out of my mouth the frontperson went right off the idea.

'I don't think so,' she hissed. 'Two women in a band would make people think it was a novelty act'.

'An unbalanced image?' I ventured. She nodded tightly and the matter was closed. Anyway, she fired me later but I think that was when the rot set in. 

You just can't get past this female drummer 

Time to let it go. You're verging on stalker now. 

Dave 

[drTStingray]

15 hours ago, project_c said:

Of course you could argue that for many women or men, Fenders are likely to be all the bass they will ever need, and they will probably look a whole lot cooler playing a sexy 4 string Fender in their noisy indie band than if they stood there with a cheesy 7 string Ritter made of gold and spalted elephant bone. 

More importantly though, it’s worth pointing out that this may well be down to the fact that Fender are putting a lot of work into reaching out to young people, they sponsor some really good events and they offer free lessons to new players, which makes them a whole lot more inclusive and accessible than any other brand. So it’s no wonder that people who are normally put off by music snobbery and elitism are turning to them. I think it’s a good thing. If you have small hands, and you want to play in bands, the Mustang is probably the coolest bass you can own at this point. 

This is true to an extent but there's also an argument that endless streams of people playing the same type of boring old fart 60s instruments, melting into the mix (I.e inaudible) is a turn off, or at least gets boring after a while. 

And note Fender did introduce the Rascal bass which some people would call cool and was certainly short scale - but dropped after not long. 

I think the truth is we on here are not generally in touch with the thoughts of the average teenager - apparently there has been an 'Ed Sheeran effect' with young people singing and playing acoustics. And from what I've seen many of us older types bemoan this type of thing. 

Intersting result of research though - I think the potential market for instruments for women has been recognised for a while in fact some manufacturers have made a point of doing signature instruments - even completely new ones. 

Fender has been historically incredibly slow to respond to market trends (active basses, 5 string basses are examples) and I wonder if this is just another example? 

Fact is the market for instruments has reduced a lot over the last few years - presumably it's the male part which isn't buying as much anymore. Maybe there aren't so many budding players and also too many who favour beaten up looking old guitars (thus not buying new). 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by drTStingray

[Dad3353]

Daisy Rock instruments were originally targeted to the girl players, I believe, with their sub-title of 'The Girl Guitar Company'. They are (or can be...) excellent; I have owned a Retro-H twelve-string guitar for many years which is as fine a guitar as I need.
Just sayin'.

[ambient]

I think that a big part of the reason why women maybe didn’t play guitar, bass or drums in the past is the male attitude toward them playing. Maybe we were scared they’d be better? It’s still there now. Read this from last year. https://jazztimes.com/departments/before-and-after/before-after-tarus-mateen/?fbclid=IwAR27B2NSsK6oygkYGjX2jD-r7vRvIFUjLgcxeJR52dG2NgkDFpwXIM9U3sg

Before he’s told that the bassist is Linda Oh he says it’s great, he’s told it’s Linda then asks who’s playing bass, again he’s told it’s Linda. His assumption then is she’s got help in the studio. With Esperanza he gives credit to the bass, it’s the bass that sounds good, not Esperanza making it sound good.

[Silvia Bluejay]

I imagine it's part of the wider attitude that we older women had to face while growing up. 'Yes, of course you can become a mechanical engineer' I was told by my mechanical engineer Dad 'and you'd be great at it, but you'd face so much hostility and discrimination it may stump your career, frustrate you on all levels and not be worth the effort.' This was Italy in the late 70s/early 80s. I didn't become a mechanical engineer.

[josie]

15 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Anyway, this drummer. Later on I found myself in a blues rock outfit fronted by a female guitarist and needing a drummer. I mentioned I knew someone but as soon as the word 'she' was out of my mouth the frontperson went right off the idea.

'I don't think so,' she hissed. 'Two women in a band would make people think it was a novelty act'.

When the drummer in my ex-band wrote the description of us for our/their now ex-Facebook page, she said "We even have a female drummer!" Personally I thought "an all-female rhythm section" would have been more interesting, but it wasn't worth arguing. 

I find people aren't too surprised to learn that I'm in a band, but they assume guitar and then are very surprised when I say I play bass. And often then assume DB and are even more surprised when I say electric bass guitar. 

Otoh I get a lot of very positive response from women in an audience, especially younger women, so hopefully just being out there in sight will encourage some of them to try it themselves. 

[tauzero]

17 hours ago, NJE said:

Brilliant in my view, the more the merrier. There are some great female artists and bands out there, and hopefully it starts to dilute the number of fat balding old men that just want to play blues and crappy old ‘Dad rock’. 

Yes, we've now got plenty of women playing blues and crappy old 'Dad rock'.

I'm a bit surprised at the numbers - female guitarists, bassists, and drummers aren't exactly a novelty but don't seem to be 50% of band membership. Maybe they're hitting a glass rehearsal room door.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Based on my experience, in order to sucessfully progress from playing at home as a hobby to playing with other people in public you inevitably have to meet and deal with a good number of idiots/dreamers/flakes/egomaniacs/substance abusers before meeting people who have the magic combination of some musical ability, some motivation and who are reasonable and pleasant human beings - my guess is lots of women give up on playing in bands before they really get started, because they (arguably quite sensibly) come to the conclusion that life is far to short to put up with this nonsense. There is certainly no shortage of female performers in evidence locally, they do tend for the most part to be either solo performers or band leaders.

[stingrayPete1977]

On 19/10/2018 at 15:03, Silvia Bluejay said:

I can't make up my mind on whether that's good news (i.e. Yay! More women play an instrument!) or bad news (Woman goes into guitar shop, is steered towards a Fender, buys it because she isn't geeky enough to know there are lots of better choices).

(I quickly lost count of the number of times I went into a shop while first-bass-hunting, my only requirement being 'suitable to petite player with small hands', and was offered a frigging Fender Jazz! 😮 Luckily I did know better.)

There are plenty of petite ladies making excellent music using a jazz bass Silvia, Esperanza Spalding and Tal Wilkenfeld are managing OK. 

[Silvia Bluejay]

Esperanza also (wo)manhandles a double bass big enough to squish me... 😮 And no, Jazz basses are terrible for a petite person, that horrendous, big, oblong body is a complete disaster - uncomfortable and cumbersome, bass-with-two-little-legs-beneath-it kind of look. (Incidentally, a Precision is almost equally uncomfortale to me.)

The only reason why those idiots in the shops were pointing me to a Jazz was because of its thin neck. Luckily being left-handed saved me from having to buy on the spot and from having to argue.

[skankdelvar]

7 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

You just can't get past this female drummer 

Time to let it go. You're verging on stalker now. 

Dave 

Maybe. It's just she was one of the best drummers I'd ever encountered either as a player or a punter. Tony Thompson's sense of groove married to Simon Philips technique, yet, when asked, laid down a totally convincing Tommy Ramone. But on the two occasions I could have worked with her she got knocked back by stupid, less talented people because she was a woman. Which would be bad enough except that she was rejected by a couple of SJW's and another woman - who you would think should know better.

The only other thing that pi55es me off quite as much was when a 48 year-old, mediocre, munting covers band drummer rejected a brilliant guitarist because he was 60 and supposedly 'too old'. So, would I like to choke the living sh*t out of feeble hypocrites who stop me working with and learning from talented musicians? Damn right I would.

Edited October 20, 2018 by skankdelvar

[stingrayPete1977]

11 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

Esperanza also (wo)manhandles a double bass big enough to squish me... 😮 And no, Jazz basses are terrible for a petite person, that horrendous, big, oblong body is a complete disaster - uncomfortable and cumbersome, bass-with-two-little-legs-beneath-it kind of look. (Incidentally, a Precision is almost equally uncomfortale to me.)

The only reason why those idiots in the shops were pointing me to a Jazz was because of its thin neck. Luckily being left-handed saved me from having to buy on the spot and from having to argue.

Suzi  Quatro always looked cool! 

She's 5ft tall 

Edited October 20, 2018 by stingrayPete1977

[lownote]

Mrs Lownote is always going on about how you can tell men have designed cars because the accelerator pedal isn't sized for a small foot, and the safety belts catch painfully on their mammaries.  I wonder how many women would redesign basses to make them more user friendly if they could.  I am minded of shots of Tal Wilkenfeld playing basses that looked three sizes too big for her and with a boob awkwardly hanging over the top.  

[Silvia Bluejay]

29 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Suzi  Quatro always looked cool! 

She's 5ft tall 

I've met her, yes she's small. And no, while she is waay cooler than I will ever be, she does look a bit swamped when she's playing some of her larger basses.

14 minutes ago, lownote12 said:

Mrs Lownote is always going on about how you can tell men have designed cars because the accelerator pedal isn't sized for a small foot, and the safety belts catch painfully on their mammaries.  I wonder how many women would redesign basses to make them more user friendly if they could.  I am minded of shots of Tal Wilkenfeld playing basses that looked three sizes too big for her and with a boob awkwardly hanging over the top.  

The boob that hangs over the top is not the main problem, believe me. It's the one that gets crushed by the upper horn (except when I play a Warwick Corvette) that gives me pain, or at least makes me uncomfortable.

[josie]

I'll admit I'm glad to be tall enough and have big enough hands that a long-scale 5-string is comfortable. And I play with the body quite low and a high neck angle, so I find a Jazz is no problem, and my main squeeze GMR feels like an optional body part 🙂 

[Happy Jack]

45 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Suzi  Quatro always looked cool! 

And according to her website & Wikipaedia entry she's sold "over 50 millions albums" too.

That's more than

50. Dave Matthews Band -- 33.5 million units

49. Phil Collins -- 33.5 million units

48. Britney Spears -- 34 million units

47. Bon Jovi -- 34.5 million units

46. Queen -- 34.5 million units

45. Def Leppard -- 35 million units

44. Bob Dylan -- 36 million units

43. Tupac Shakur -- 36.5 million units

41. Backstreet Boys -- 37 million units

39. Tim McGraw -- 37.5 million units

39. Foreigner -- 37.5 million units

38. Rod Stewart -- 38 million units

37. Simon & Garfunkel -- 38.5 million units

36. Chicago -- 38.5 million units

35. Eric Clapton -- 40 million units

34. Reba McEntire -- 41 million units

33. Santana -- 43.5 million units

32. Alan Jackson -- 43.5 million units

30. Eminem -- 44.5 million units

30. Guns N' Roses -- 44.5 million units

30. Bob Seger & The Silver Bullet Band -- 44.5 million units

29. Alabama -- 46.5 million units

28. Kenny Rogers -- 47.5 million units

25. Shania Twain -- 48 million units

25. Kenny G -- 48 million units

25. Journey -- 48 million units

23. Neil Diamond -- 49.5 million units

23. Fleetwood Mac -- 49.5 million units

22. Celine Dion -- 50 million units

... which is actually kind of impressive. It's good to know that you can rely on statistics readily-available in the public domain.

Or not.

Incidentally, does anyone have a clue who some of those people actually are? Tupac Shakur? Reba McEntire?

[project_c]

8 hours ago, drTStingray said:

This is true to an extent but there's also an argument that endless streams of people playing the same type of boring old fart 60s instruments, melting into the mix (I.e inaudible) is a turn off, or at least gets boring after a while. 

And note Fender did introduce the Rascal bass which some people would call cool and was certainly short scale - but dropped after not long. 

I think the truth is we on here are not generally in touch with the thoughts of the average teenager - apparently there has been an 'Ed Sheeran effect' with young people singing and playing acoustics. And from what I've seen many of us older types bemoan this type of thing. 

Intersting result of research though - I think the potential market for instruments for women has been recognised for a while in fact some manufacturers have made a point of doing signature instruments - even completely new ones. 

Fender has been historically incredibly slow to respond to market trends (active basses, 5 string basses are examples) and I wonder if this is just another example? 

Fact is the market for instruments has reduced a lot over the last few years - presumably it's the male part which isn't buying as much anymore. Maybe there aren't so many budding players and also too many who favour beaten up looking old guitars (thus not buying new). 

 

If your Fenders aren’t audible in a mix, you’re possibly playing them wrong (or playing in a metal band, in which case it doesn’t matter what you play as long as it’s going through 72 Darkglass pedals*). 

The old brands - Fender, Musicman, Gibson - have a heritage which keeps them cool, and by sponsoring events full of young bands and giving out free online lessons, Fender have clearly got through to the next generation. It’s worth looking through Ernie Ball’s yt channel, it’s basically videos of men (often old men) playing metal. It’s everything that a teenage girl finds deeply uninteresting. Even I am bored to tears by it and I’m a 45 year old male. And I love Stingrays and Sabres. 

It’s simple, if you want a younger / female customer base, you just need to embrace that demographic. EB and Gibson could easily be doing the same thing if they were bothered.

 

*(that’s probably not true. I don’t know anything about metal)

[kodiakblair]

Either last year or the year before guitar sales were 55% acoustic and 45% electric. If the buskers on my local High St are anything to go by then the ladies are mostly buying acoustics.

The 2 big name acoustic builders Taylor and Martin mentioned in the Rolling Stone link.Same link also said it was based on Fender's sale of electric and acoustic guitars.

[gjones]

 

Fender are concentrating a lot of their resources on promoting to women. They're reaching out to a lot of, guitar playing, women and are offering them endorsement deals.

My niece plays Fender electrics and has never paid for a guitar. She has a house full of them but has never had to buy one with her own money. Her first electric was her dad's MIJ Telecaster.  Since she signed with a record company, Fender have thrown guitars at her willy nilly (at least half a dozen so far). She's over in LA, recording her 3rd album, and I was with her dad when he called her to see how she was doing. Where was she when she answered? ...... the Fender factory of course. Where she'll no doubt be picking up another freebie. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by gjones

[skankdelvar]

1 hour ago, Happy Jack said:

Incidentally, does anyone have a clue who some of those people actually are? ... Reba McEntire?

Reba McEntire's been around since 70's (the only living country artist to have had hits in all four decades) and recorded 28 albums all of which achieved gold, platinum  or multi-platinum. 16 albums went to #1. She's also had 32 #1 singles and 56 top ten hits, surpassing Dolly Parton's record in 2009.

She's also an actress and had her own sit-com on the WB network for 6 seasons, and performed in Broadway musicals, starring in South Pacific at the Carnegie Hall. In movies she appeared in cult classic Tremors with Kevin Bacon and voiced the cow in Charlotte's Web. This year she fronted KFC's US national ad campaign as the brand's first female 'Colonel Sanders'.

So, fairly low profile, then 

[Happy Jack]

Excellent! I've managed to avoid her entire career. 

I thought it was just rap artists I did that to.

 

[stingrayPete1977]

3 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

And according to her website & Wikipaedia entry she's sold "over 50 millions albums" too.

That's more than

50. Dave Matthews Band -- 33.5 million units

49. Phil Collins -- 33.5 million units

48. Britney Spears -- 34 million units

47. Bon Jovi -- 34.5 million units

46. Queen -- 34.5 million units

45. Def Leppard -- 35 million units

44. Bob Dylan -- 36 million units

43. Tupac Shakur -- 36.5 million units

41. Backstreet Boys -- 37 million units

39. Tim McGraw -- 37.5 million units

39. Foreigner -- 37.5 million units

38. Rod Stewart -- 38 million units

37. Simon & Garfunkel -- 38.5 million units

36. Chicago -- 38.5 million units

35. Eric Clapton -- 40 million units

34. Reba McEntire -- 41 million units

33. Santana -- 43.5 million units

32. Alan Jackson -- 43.5 million units

30. Eminem -- 44.5 million units

30. Guns N' Roses -- 44.5 million units

30. Bob Seger & The Silver Bullet Band -- 44.5 million units

29. Alabama -- 46.5 million units

28. Kenny Rogers -- 47.5 million units

25. Shania Twain -- 48 million units

25. Kenny G -- 48 million units

25. Journey -- 48 million units

23. Neil Diamond -- 49.5 million units

23. Fleetwood Mac -- 49.5 million units

22. Celine Dion -- 50 million units

... which is actually kind of impressive. It's good to know that you can rely on statistics readily-available in the public domain.

Or not.

Incidentally, does anyone have a clue who some of those people actually are? Tupac Shakur? Reba McEntire?

You've got to love Suzi, it's the law! 

Our singer can't do gruff or I'd be adding something into our set. 

[stingrayPete1977]

3 hours ago, project_c said:

 

It’s simple, if you want a younger / female customer base, you just need to embrace that demographic. EB and Gibson could easily be doing the same thing if they were bothered.

 

*(that’s probably not true. I don’t know anything about metal)

You do realise they make the St Vincent model for, well, St Vincent?

Edited October 20, 2018 by stingrayPete1977

[skankdelvar]

6 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Excellent! I've managed to avoid her entire career. 

I thought it was just rap artists I did that to.

You'd probably like Reba. Unless you don't like country music in which case you probably wouldn't. 

That's the thing, see. Country is huge in the States and women are very much at the forefront compared to Rock, always have been - but we've never heard of any of them over here.