Bugera Veyron 1001 series "2000W" amps

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow in your nutshell and @Bridgehouse if I have you correct are you saying most retailer listings in general, or specific to this amp?

If its in general and causes consternation about not quantifying the figures, then surely for any product actually the best place to go is the manual bearing in mind you obviously think/know the ads across the board  may not have all the information 

[Al Krow]

I'd say we're probably splitting 10-2 in terms of where folk are landing on this.

Most 'normal' people don't go to the manual as their first point of call. They go to websites particularly retailer's websites.

Put it another way why make such a massive thing about 2000W on all the ads and not mention "peak" anywhere apart from the small print in the manual? Just read how many times "massive power" and "2000W" is mentioned on their website.

I and most other BC'ers on this thread consider that misleading. I appreciate you and ebozz don't. That's cool.

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Al Krow

[Bridgehouse]

2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@Al Krow in your nutshell and @Bridgehouse if I have you correct are you saying most retailer listings in general, or specific to this amp?

If its in general and causes consternation about not quantifying the figures, then surely for any product actually the best place to go is the manual bearing in mind you obviously think/know the ads across the board  may not have all the information 

I was specifically referencing this one. 

More specifically the fact that at least 2 U.K. retailers have the power listed as 2000w RMS despite the manual saying 2000w Peak. 

I don’t recall any other amp product I’ve come across with a similar discrepancy.

[Cuzzie]

 

Then is that a retailer mishap or a manufacturer mishap?

I read an advert in Viz magazine years ago for a new fragrance pheromone X that was bound to make you smell more attractive to women - bought that without research, made me smell of pigs wee and was more of a deterrent, never again.

Trickfish probably didn’t get as much rap because despite the name, it had its power ratings on the web site slightly easier to find.

Suppose we should rat on DG, they say their amp goes higher than 900w but don’t give a figure, that’s a bit naughty, better not risk it. Genzler give a wattage for their amp without saying peak or RMS - steer clear even though it’s bloody brilliant.

Split is irrelevant, at some point in history the majority of the world thought it was flat.

Time will tell whether enough people think it sounds good and provides enough ‘heft’ for most scenarios or not. If we think we value BCers opinions on such matters, surely the person/people with the amp who have made comparisons with more widely held amps tells enough of a story as to what it can do as opposed to a spreadsheet, or a bit of HTML text which may have been entered incorrectly.

 

[krispn]

I just bought an amp that said it was 600w I never thought to check if it was rms or peak. It’s never really occurred to do so but It was pretty loud at the gig when I plugged it in and played it. That’s sufficient proof for me.

Folks are getting tied up in knots over a sub £300 amp because of an expectation or misrepresentation of the 2000w figure. What does your instinct say? We can defend the noob in a minute but what does your gut feeling lead you to think? Now I’ll ask have you played one at a gig? What’s your experience using this kit or is it simply postulation because...? 

Personally I look at the manual of new gear when I can. I’ve read manuals of gear I’ve never owned to get a feel for gear but I was very poor and very aspirational in terms of what I wanted to own and play😀Folks who know me on here can attest to that. I’m not one to believe marketing and I can ‘kinda’ figure out what an eq might do from the frequencies/features etc...kinda. 

Ten pages in and there’s still all this wasted energy on what it might do. I think the folk who own these heads state that they work on the gig? 

For those with the means buy one and test it on a gig and send it back for a refund if you don’t like it. If you just want to argue over the things a company might put in an advert well then you’re probably wasting your own time. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by krispn

[Bridgehouse]

3 minutes ago, krispn said:

I just bought an amp that said it was 600w I never thought to check if it was rms or peak. It’s never really occurred to do so but It was pretty loud at the gig when I plugged it in and played it. That’s sufficient proof for me.

Folks are getting tied up in knots over a sub £300 amp because of an expectation or misrepresentation of the 2000w figure. What does your instinct say? We can defend the noob in a minute but what does your gut feeling lead you to think? Now I’ll ask have you played one at a gig? What’s your experience using this kit or is it simply postulation because...? 

Personally I look at the manual of new gear when I can. I’ve read manuals of gear I’ve never owned to get a feel for gear but I was very poor and very aspirational in terms of what I wanted to own and play😀Folks who know me on here can attest to that. I’m not one to believe marketing and I can ‘kinda’ figure out what an eq might do from the frequencies/features etc...kinda. 

Ten pages in and there’s still all this wasted energy on what it might do. I think the folk who own these heads state that they work on the gig? 

For those with the means buy one and test it on a gig and send it back for a refund if you don’t like it. If you just want to argue over the things a company might put in an advert well then you’re probably wasting your own time. 

I’ll shut up then

[Al Krow]

The point we are making is a simple one about what is "misleading". Bugera is being misleading here. No doubt whatsoever. Please allow me to explain:

What constitutes misleading advertising depends on the impact on the consumer. If the "average" consumer is likely to find it misleading (and I'd suggest that as a population we're at the more sophisticated end of the bass market) then it's misleading.

Marketing communications must not materially mislead or be likely to do so.

The fact that a large majority of us on this thread find the advertising by Bugera misleading says to me that the ASA would rule that it was. (If you need to ask who the ASA is then you definitely shouldn't be arguing against my point here 😀)

Marketing communications must not mislead the consumer by omitting material information.

Nowhere in any of the ads (neither Bugera's own nor the ones the retailers put out which Bugera would almost certainly need to "sign off" on) does it mention "peak".  If RMS is the normal measure then it would be regarded as being a material omission not to mention that Bugera are referring to "peak" in the ads.

Ok guys, enough already with horses, water and trying to make them drink 😂 Like Bridgehouse I'd best go shut up now and go play through my Mesa M6 with its genuine 600W RMS watts.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Al Krow

[krispn]

Well it’s always good to have discussion but the few people who actually own and gig one say it’s fine. What else need’s to be  said?

[Bridgehouse]

Genuine 600w RMS?

 

Or is it....?

 

[Bridgehouse]

1 minute ago, krispn said:

Well it’s always good to have discussion but the few people who actually own and gig one say it’s fine. What else need’s to be  said?

Lots. It’s an Internet forum to talk about basses. We get enough crap posted about non-bass stuff as it is - I’d much rather have a debate about this sort of stuff on here.

[krispn]

But so much of this stuff is in the ether and the guys who use it like it. Debates about this figure or that figure and whether it’s misleading or not become tedious as it becomes an opinion or a feeling but not based on any practical experience. 

My amp irrespective of ems or peak was a boss on the gig and I’m genuinely excited to play through it again and discover more of what it has to offer. 

Finally im cognisant of the ASA ( some close relatives have worked for Saatchi & Saatchi in the not too distant past) and their understanding of marketing and manipulation of the masses is frightening! Let’s hope they don’t get into politics!!

Edited November 14, 2018 by krispn

[Al Krow]

12 minutes ago, krispn said:

Well it’s always good to have discussion but the few people who actually own and gig one say it’s fine. What else need’s to be  said?

But there are a ton of amps which folk actually own and gig and say are fine.

Point is if I think someone is trying to mislead me I will avoid their products. So Bugera and Trickfish are not doing themselves any favours with folk who like to play with a straight bat; as there are plenty of alternatives.

This amp is incredibly good value but I'm finding I don't like the values of the manufacturer wanting to pull a fast one with misleading ads (please see above for why it's a misleading ad).

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Al Krow

[krispn]

If you don’t trust the numbers walk away. No harm no foul. 

[stewblack]

I like the cut of your jib @krispn the 'debate' quickly becomes stale, repetitious and dull. A product is advertised with hyperbolic exaggeration as to its actual capabilities. This is not new, not really worthy of so much breast beating.

All that matters to those, like me, who have bought the amp is reliability, sound and volume. Okay, okay - and looks. Those of you who seem to feel that the manufacturer has in some way offended you personally won't be buying the amp. So why care so much about something you will never buy?

I struggle to see why folk get so cross about such things, especially when it's nothing new, has always happened and always will. We're talking about a bass amp for amateur players here not food or medicine.

[krispn]

I’m just grumpy and not afraid to show it 😀 

My recent purchase wasn’t entirely ‘uninformed’ so while I haven’t played or owned this kit before it’s provenance or lineage was good enough to make the call and spend the cash. I kinda knew what I was getting in basic terms of output and the preamp at least however the proof of playing it is the joy. I could read a negative or positive opinion online and fall into the confirmation bias of the buyer but I’m confident enough in my knowledge and experience that it was worth the risk. 

Anyways that’s me off topic enough. Carry on with the debate!

Edited November 15, 2018 by krispn

[Bridgehouse]

4 minutes ago, stewblack said:

I like the cut of your jib @krispn the 'debate' quickly becomes stale, repetitious and dull. A product is advertised with hyperbolic exaggeration as to its actual capabilities. This is not new, not really worthy of so much breast beating.

All that matters to those, like me, who have bought the amp is reliability, sound and volume. Okay, okay - and looks. Those of you who seem to feel that the manufacturer has in some way offended you personally won't be buying the amp. So why care so much about something you will never buy?

I struggle to see why folk get so cross about such things, especially when it's nothing new, has always happened and always will. We're talking about a bass amp for amateur players here not food or medicine.

I honestly don’t care. It’s an Internet forum. Specifically we debate basses, amps and other stuff. It’s just debate. I’m not breast beating, or bothered, or offended or pretty much anything to be honest. It seems like a good amp, at a good price, but there is a whiff of “over-hyped specs” in the advertising. 

So I don’t care so much at all. Would I buy one? Possibly. 

The thing is, a new player on another forum contacted me and asked me why this 2000w amp was so much cheaper than other amps even those at 500w which were clearly inferior in power terms. 

[ebozzz]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

The point we are making is a simple one about what is "misleading". Bugera is being misleading here. No doubt whatsoever. Please allow me to explain:

What constitutes misleading advertising depends on the impact on the consumer. If the "average" consumer is likely to find it misleading (and I'd suggest that as a population we're at the more sophisticated end of the bass market) then it's misleading.

Marketing communications must not materially mislead or be likely to do so.

The fact that a large majority of us on this thread find the advertising by Bugera misleading says to me that the ASA would rule that it was. (If you need to ask who the ASA is then you definitely shouldn't be arguing against my point here 😀)

Marketing communications must not mislead the consumer by omitting material information.

Nowhere in any of the ads (neither Bugera's own nor the ones the retailers put out which Bugera would almost certainly need to "sign off" on) does it mention "peak".  If RMS is the normal measure then it would be regarded as being a material omission not to mention that Bugera are referring to "peak" in the ads.

Ok guys, enough already with horses, water and trying to make them drink 😂 Like Bridgehouse I'd best go shut up now and go play through my Mesa M6 with its genuine 600W RMS watts.

Al you feel that Bugera is misleading simply because they don't list the amp specs in the RMS values that YOU prefer to see. I was never mislead. When I found out about the head years ago I saw 2000 watts on the site that you linked then thought to myself, "Is that Peak or RMS"? When I couldn't find the answer on that page, my next stop was the manual where I found my answer. While there I also took the time to read about other features of the amp. Simple and not misleading at all to me. Just marketing that maybe could have been done differently but often is not by lots of companies regarding a variety of things. I'll let you get back to your Mesa now....

[Al Krow]

If it was just me I'd realise pretty quickly that I was out of line.

I have now several times acknowledged that you an Cuzzie are cool with Bugera using the "peak" number on their ads without stating they are doing so. Not sure why you're finding it quite so hard to accept that the majority of us on this thread would prefer manufacturers to either use the RMS number or state on the ads they are using the peak number?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, Bridgehouse said:

I honestly don’t care. It’s an Internet forum. Specifically we debate basses, amps and other stuff. It’s just debate. I’m not breast beating, or bothered, or offended or pretty much anything to be honest. It seems like a good amp, at a good price, but there is a whiff of “over-hyped specs” in the advertising. 

So I don’t care so much at all. Would I buy one? Possibly. 

The thing is, a new player on another forum contacted me and asked me why this 2000w amp was so much cheaper than other amps even those at 500w which were clearly inferior in power terms. 

^^ Exactly this word for word! Thanks Bridgehouse!

6 hours ago, krispn said:

I’m just grumpy and not afraid to show it 😀 

Haha - me neither. But in my case I've got the excuse of being over 50, what's yours? 😂

[Cuzzie]

This is as hilarious as it is tedious. Apparently the information is not easy to find. The minute the information is presented on a plate it’s too hard to find, i’ll Let you into a secret.

I used a reasonable well known search engine called Google and then I typed the following words “Bugera Veyron specs” and by some curious twist of fate and luck, the pdf (3 letter acronyms can be tricky, if you don’t know what that is it’s a format of a document) is the first hit.

Now I know some people find using a manual hard, but it’s not greatly different to reading a web site.

As far as researching a buy, I know for sure most of us will search many areas, sites, retailers, second hand markets to secure the best price, some of us here having done that have publically called sellers out on their pricing based on this, it seems to me that this research we are arguing about is less difficult and time consuming.

coming back to other manufacturers, DG, Genzler, etc. Maybe we should start a new thread on if they have listed Peak or RMS or not, name and shame the culprits, and then still use their stuff.

[Al Krow]

It is extremely dull simply because:

Not sure why you're finding it quite so hard to accept that the majority of us on this thread would prefer manufacturers to either use the RMS number or state on the ads they are using the peak number?

Please answer this Q.

[ebozzz]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

If it was just me I'd realise pretty quickly that I was out of line.

I have now several times acknowledged that you an Cuzzie are cool with Bugera using the "peak" number on their ads without stating they are doing so. Not sure why you're finding it quite so hard to accept that the majority of us on this thread would prefer manufacturers to either use the RMS number or state on the ads they are using the peak number?

 

 

 

Al, then why don't you and your contingent of RMS followers in this thread tell that spiel to Bugera? I mean crying about it here isn't likely have much of an impact. It's not a BIG deal to me because the information is easy to find and readily available. Again, you just seem to feel that it should have been presented in a manner that YOU approve of! I mean, when I questioned the ratings years ago, it took me less than 2 minutes to locate an answer. Why is it so hard for you to accept that they may not be deceptive just because they don't do things YOUR way?

Edited November 15, 2018 by ebozzz

[Al Krow]

Circles. Inability of some folk to appreciate another point of view. It happens. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Al Krow

[ebozzz]

18 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I agree and I've gone one further than contacting Bugera.

That's great! Good luck with that. Now, be prepared to do the same with other companies who don't present information in a way that you deem appropriate. Trust me, there's a lots of other products out there with descriptions that may be even more vague than Bugera's....

Edited November 15, 2018 by ebozzz

[ebozzz]

19 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Circles. Inability of some folk to appreciate another point of view. It happens. 

I understand your point but I don't agree that it's as serious a thing as you make it. Maybe you're preaching to the wrong choir.