Bugera Veyron 1001 series "2000W" amps

[Cuzzie]

There are so many corrections and strikethroughs it’s hard to keep track, not sure when the dad joke of ‘Peak your interest’ came in.

But @Al Krow when this was created to look to see if it was plausible to use as a back up head, did you actually think it was 2000W RMS?  If so that makes it over twice as powerful as one of your heads, and over 3 times as powerful as another. As a back up amp it doesn’t make sense if it’s more powerful than your cabs can handle?

How do Mesa rate the M6’s watts on the web site and manual?

[Cuzzie]

Solution

 

 

[mcnach]

15 hours ago, ebozzz said:

Am I arguing? My point is that you and others seem to keep saying "It's not 2000 watts" but have nothing to show as proof that it's not. The company states that it's 2000 watts PEAK. If you have evidence that it's not, please provide it. Anything regarding RMS that was discussed in this thread has nothing to do with that since the company doesn't rate their amps with RMS.

 

The point, my dear obtuse friend, is that if you are going to compare something you need to compare parameters measured n the same way. Choose peak, choose RMS, choose anything, but choose the same. We generally talk RMS, and the Bugera is not 2000W RMS, and yes, I know, they do not claim that, but they very clearly play on the assumption by most people, inexperienced or not, that wattage ratings would be RMS because that's what most people do.

 

However, you knew all this, I knew you knew all this... yawn.

Come on. Really.

[ebozzz]

25 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

How do Mesa rate the M6’s watts on the web site and manual?

I can answer that. The M6 doesn't appear to be in production any longer so there's no information on their site about it. The best that I could find in the manual is the following quoted portion. For their Subway amps they just state 800 Watts @ 4 or 2 Ohms (400 @ 8). The manual does have RMS values.

Quote

These are the Speaker Outputs for the M6 CARBINE. These jacks accept Nuetrik locking SPEAKON type connectors or standard ¼” phono type plugs. This is the suggested configuration. With an 8 ohm speaker load and the impedance switch set to 8/4, your M6 CARBINE will produce approximately 320 watts of clean power. A 4 ohm speaker load and the impedance switch set to 8/4, your M6 CARBINE will produce approximately 600 watts of clean power. Due to a limiter circuit added to protect the amplifier, a 2 ohm speaker load with the impedance switch set to 2 OHM will still produce approximately 600 watts of clean power. When using a 2 ohm speaker load, make sure the SPEAKER IMPEDANCE switch is set to the 2 OHM (switch down) setting. This is critical for reliability.

 

070398-m6Carbine_140313.pdf

[mcnach]

9 hours ago, krispn said:

I just bought an amp that said it was 600w I never thought to check if it was rms or peak. It’s never really occurred to do so but It was pretty loud at the gig when I plugged it in and played it. That’s sufficient proof for me.

Folks are getting tied up in knots over a sub £300 amp because of an expectation or misrepresentation of the 2000w figure. What does your instinct say? We can defend the noob in a minute but what does your gut feeling lead you to think? Now I’ll ask have you played one at a gig? What’s your experience using this kit or is it simply postulation because...? 

Personally I look at the manual of new gear when I can. I’ve read manuals of gear I’ve never owned to get a feel for gear but I was very poor and very aspirational in terms of what I wanted to own and play😀Folks who know me on here can attest to that. I’m not one to believe marketing and I can ‘kinda’ figure out what an eq might do from the frequencies/features etc...kinda. 

Ten pages in and there’s still all this wasted energy on what it might do. I think the folk who own these heads state that they work on the gig? 

For those with the means buy one and test it on a gig and send it back for a refund if you don’t like it. If you just want to argue over the things a company might put in an advert well then you’re probably wasting your own time. 

 

Thank you, krispn.

 

 

[ebozzz]

5 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

The point, my dear obtuse friend, is that if you are going to compare something you need to compare parameters measured n the same way. Choose peak, choose RMS, choose anything, but choose the same. We generally talk RMS, and the Bugera is not 2000W RMS, and yes, I know, they do not claim that, but they very clearly play on the assumption by most people, inexperienced or not, that wattage ratings would be RMS because that's what most people do.

 

However, you knew all this, I knew you knew all this... yawn.

Come on. Really.

Is RMS, which is based on a continuous signal, the best representation of bass amp performance? Honest question...

You only assume that they play on users thinking that the values are RMS...

[Cuzzie]

@ebozzz how did you find that, it was buried in page 9, of the manual and about page 3 of the manuals page, which I think were alphabetical?

That is top notch delving

 

[ebozzz]

Just now, Cuzzie said:

@ebozzz how did you find that, it was buried in page 9, of the manual and about page 3 of the manuals page, which I think were alphabetical?

That is top notch delving

 

I actually had to scroll through the manual several times and when I didn't find a specifications page, the only clear possibility to me was that it might mention something with the section on the speaker outputs. I've seen that before with a different manufacturer.......

[Muzz]

12 minutes ago, ebozzz said:

You only assume that they play on users thinking that the values are RMS...

I've worked with Marketing types, and I can confidently say that if there's a smidgen of a hope of an inkling of a possibility that they can pass off a bigger (i.e. better) number (or any other factor) using any sort of loophole which isn't legally prohibited (and even then I've known them take the chance) to make the product sound better to the Mug Punter (and let's not forget in this specific case even distributors and big retailers have been fooled), then they'll be all over it like a dog on a hot sausage.

Edit: And if you think a company like Behringer isn't completely, cynically aware of the state of the market with regards to their competitors and their publishing the specs of their amps (i.e. 90% of them use RMS), then I've a really, really great investment opportunity I'd like to involve you in... 🙂

Edited November 15, 2018 by Muzz

[mcnach]

13 minutes ago, ebozzz said:

Is RMS, which is based on a continuous signal, the best representation of bass amp performance? Honest question...

You only assume that they play on users thinking that the values are RMS...

 

Probably not, but we're used to that parameter and it gives us a bit of a ballpark of what to expect. I think that's as much as we can honestly expect. I'm not very interested in whether an amp can put out 500W or 700W... but I care if it's 200W or 1000W because that can have a bit more of an impact. 

I bought a TC RH450 when they first came out. They said 450W. I tried it, it did the job. It turned out it was more like 236W or something. No big deal, volume-wise it did the job I expected from any amp in the 300-500W range. I sold it only because I didn't get along with the sound, not because of its power. TC did play on users when using the 450W number and they admitted it, qualifying it as "but our clever power management system makes it sound as loud as a typical 450W, look at the graphs"... and they weren't completely wrong, and perhaps they did not mean to misled but give users a number that reflected better what you could expect from the amp, volume wise. 

RMS is not perfect, but it's the parameter that's most widely in use. Using 'peak' without explicitly indicating it is a little disingenuous. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by mcnach

[ebozzz]

1 minute ago, mcnach said:

 

Probably not, but we're used to that parameter and it gives us a bit of a ballpark of what to expect. I think that's as much as we can honestly expect. I'm not very interested in whether an amp can put out 500W or 700W... but I care if it's 200W or 1000W because that can have a bit more of an impact. 

I bought a TC RH450 when they first came out. They said 450W. I tried it, it did the job. It turned out it was more like 236W or something. No big deal, volume-wise it did the job I expected from any amp in the 300-500W range. I sold it only because I didn't get along with the sound, not because of its power. TC did play on users when using the 450W number and they admitted it, qualifying it as "but our clever power management system makes it sound as loud as a typical 450W, look at the graphs"... and they weren't completely wrong, and perhaps they did not mean to misled but give users a number that reflected better what you could expect from the amp, volume wise. 

RMS is not perfect, but it's the parameter that's most widely in use. Using 'peak' without expressly indicating it is a little disingenuous. 

 

 

If it's not, why are so many of you hung up on that type of rating? They did expressly indicate that it was 2000 watts peak. In the manual....

[ebozzz]

6 minutes ago, Muzz said:

I've worked with Marketing types, and I can confidently say that if there's a smidgen of a hope of an inkling of a possibility that they can pass off a bigger (i.e. better) number (or any other factor) using any sort of loophole which isn't legally prohibited (and even then I've known them take the chance) to make the product sound better to the Mug Punter (and let's not forget in this specific case even distributors and big retailers have been fooled), then they'll be all over it like a dog on a hot sausage.

Edit: And if you think a company like Behringer isn't completely, cynically aware of the state of the market with regards to their competitors and their publishing the specs of their amps (i.e. 90% of them use RMS), then I've a really, really great investment opportunity I'd like to involve you in... 🙂

If I were to only consider the following link, I'd say that Mesa Boogie is "cynically aware of the state of the market" also.....

http://mesaboogie.com/amplifiers/bass/subway-series/subway-d800-plus/index.html

[Cuzzie]

We can solve this (shameless plug for my thread) let’s get it debated in parliament 

The future generations of bass players will thank us pioneers

Edited November 15, 2018 by Cuzzie

[ebozzz]

Just now, Cuzzie said:

We can solve this (shameless plug for my thread) let’s get I debated in parliament 

The future generations of bass players will thank us pioneers

Let me clarify that I'm all for a standardized rating system with regards to amp specifications. It has to be a system that makes sense and that provides useful insight. Hanging onto RMS when that form of rating probably isn't the best indicator does not make much sense at all to me. It's time for something new.....

[Muzz]

12 minutes ago, ebozzz said:

If I were to only consider the following link, I'd say that Mesa Boogie is "cynically aware of the state of the market" also.....

http://mesaboogie.com/amplifiers/bass/subway-series/subway-d800-plus/index.html

Pfffft. The Mesa figures are RMS. If Behringer was marketing the Subway, it'd be with a much bigger number than 800 on it...

I'd say cynicism lies (SWIDT?) in making your product look comparatively much more powerful than it actually is, not less.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Muzz

[mcnach]

15 minutes ago, ebozzz said:

If it's not, why are so many of you hung up on that type of rating? They did expressly indicate that it was 2000 watts peak. In the manual....

 

I'm losing my will to... live...

Ok, I'll let you carry on with others. I'm exhausted.

[PaulWarning]

another ruse amp manufacturers use is to give the headline output figure when at 4 ohms, which is ok when it's an amp head, but, for example the Fender Rumble 500 V3 combo is only that when used with an extension cab, they're clearly trying to mislead people  and hoping they don't read the specs properly, well, if they buy something without doing the research, more fool them

Edited November 15, 2018 by PaulWarning

[ebozzz]

18 minutes ago, Muzz said:

Pfffft. The Mesa figures are RMS. If Behringer was marketing the Subway, it'd be with a much bigger number than 800 on it...

I'd say cynicism lies (SWIDT?) in making your product look comparatively much more powerful than it actually is, not less.

I know they're RMS but I wouldn't have clearly known that from the web page. The manual is much more informative though. I personally take all marketing with a grain of salt. I consider it, do my own research and then make a decision on whether the product is something that might fit my needs. If I'm extremely doubtful in any way, I make a purchase using a vendor that allows me ample time to test the product as well as the ability to easily return the item if it's not for me. I was unsure about the Veyrons before buying. Having a 45 day return period and being able to get discounted price made it less of risk. I'm glad that I took a chance....

Edited November 15, 2018 by ebozzz

[Muzz]

I don't think that if the manufacturer claims the lower of two possible figures (and in doing so uses the same rating method as 90% of the competitive market) on their webpage (unlike Behringer with the Veyron) then you can complain much about cynicism.

Anyway, I'm glad you like the amp.

I'm out.

[ebozzz]

6 minutes ago, Muzz said:

I don't think that if the manufacturer claims the lower of two possible figures (and in doing so uses the same rating method as 90% of the competitive market) on their webpage (unlike Behringer with the Veyron) then you can complain much about cynicism.

Anyway, I'm glad you like the amp.

I'm out.

The web page does not clearly state that the figures are RMS. Therefore, how would someone know that those were in the "90%" simply by looking there? And, I wasn't complaining. It was just an example of how manufacturers are all over the place. At least one person in this thread made a big deal about Bugera not being clear on their site. It's not like RMS is the end all & be all for amp ratings anyway.....

[Phil Starr]

I'm going to defend @Al Krow but then I'm out too, there are a couple of people here who have lost the plot a little and think by constantly repeating the same argument they can somehow 'win'.

First of all I don't think Behringer can justify the 2000W claim even as a 'peak' figure. In the days of Class A/B we all knew that amps were absolutely limited by the maximum voltage the power supply could provide. The rms voltage was based on a mathematical calculation of the equivalent continuous power an amp would provide if it were supplying a continuous current. The calculation is called Root Mean Square and involves the square root of 2 which is roughly 1.414. The peak voltage an amp can swing is 1.414 times the 'average' voltage and as power is voltage squared x impedance the peak power is twice the RMS power. In practice the quoted power for amps is usually measured at a certain distortion level over a standard period of time. If you go back to most amplifier ads you'll see that almost all will say something like 500W continuous and 1000W peak and the peak figure is always double the continuous or RMS figure.

Behringer are claiming more than double the power their amps make, whether you take the 500W or the unsubstantiated 800w figure. I think this is a deliberate attempt to deceive their customers. Since this is the sort of starter amp sold to less experienced and younger people I think it is dishonest, exploitative and possibly illegal. Just effectively saying 'we don't measure our amps in this way' is disingenuous and probably untrue. Until recently their manuals were refreshingly honest and the handbooks gave accurate continuous figures, they now seem to have abandoned that practice and it is not possible to know what power the Beyron produces from anything Behringer/Music Group publish.

I'm not sure what point a couple of our members are trying to make, that it's OK to lie and deceive. That there should be no consumer protection.

[bloodandtearsuk]

I've ordered the tube version.. it's my first ever Bass amp..  it ticks the boxes I need it to... I know it will be great portable unit for home use, and plenty loud enough for gigging.  I am now educated enough to know it's not 2000W but likely more than 500W.

 

I'm now considering the Bugera cabinets....

[Al Krow]

@Phil Starr as ever, wise and measured words. Always appreciated. You have summarised mine and others' concerns about what Bugera are doing more eloquently than I have been able to.

@mcnach, @Muzz gents, I share your collective exhaustion!! 

@bloodandtearsuk - congratulations on the purchase buddy. From the comments of those that have this amp already, you should be in for a treat and you know exactly what you're getting on the power front. And it does look like being amazing value. If this thread has been useful on that score, it's served its purpose.

Look forward to hearing how you're getting on with it. My recommendation is not to skimp on your choice of cabs; get the best that you can afford (and maybe check out the used ones in the FS?). For me my cabs are just as important (if not more so!) a part of my sound as my amps. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Al Krow

[ebozzz]

11 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm going to defend @Al Krow I think this is a deliberate attempt to deceive their customers. Since this is the sort of starter amp sold to less experienced and younger people I think it is dishonest, exploitative and possibly illegal. Just effectively saying 'we don't measure our amps in this way' is disingenuous and probably untrue. Until recently their manuals were refreshingly honest and the handbooks gave accurate continuous figures, they now seem to have abandoned that practice and it is not possible to know what power the Beyron produces from anything Behringer/Music Group publish.

Respectfully, I know a lot more gigging bassists that own one of than the type of end user you have described. You and others keep saying that Bugera is deliberately lying about their rating. If that's truly the case, prove them wrong! Enough with the assumption of guilt. It's just as exhausting......

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

17 minutes ago, ebozzz said:

You and others keep saying that Bugera is deliberately lying about their rating. If that's truly the case, prove them wrong!

A perusal of the history of Behringer's shenanigans gives said claims plenty of credence. But if you must, look at the power consumption of the amp. It's 880 watts. That means if the Bugera/Behringer claim is true it puts out more than twice what it draws from the wall socket. That either means they're deliberately lying or they failed to pass grammar school level physics.