History is written by the victors.

[Bridgehouse]

1 minute ago, EssentialTension said:

You can drop a Precision bass down the stairs and quite possibly pick it up and play it. It may not be in tune but the headstock will still be attached.

I reckon there’s a good chance it would be in tune

[AndyTravis]

2 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

I reckon there’s a good chance it would be in tune

Doesn’t matter - nobody listens to the bass player anyhow.

just Wear it low and shove some Ray Bans on. Cool as the drool on a polar bears tool.

[EssentialTension]

And in the 1950s and 1960s Fender had a marketing guy called Don Randall who was very good at his job.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Randall_(Fender)

Edited October 22, 2018 by EssentialTension

[Maude]

4 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

Cool as the drool on a polar bears tool.

Well there's a saying you don't hear down the W.I. 

[AndyTravis]

5 minutes ago, EssentialTension said:

And in the 1950s and 1960s Fender had a marketing guy called Don Randall who was very good at his job.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Randall_(Fender)

Good old Don. Known in advertising circles Simply as...”The Don”.

[AndyTravis]

7 minutes ago, Maude said:

Well there's a saying you don't hear down the W.I. 

You’re obviously not visiting my local chapter...

[discreet]

59 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

Model T Ford - it wasn’t the first car made, wasn’t the best car made, and has been far surpassed since... but it set a benchmark for car manufacturing.

The difference being that most bass players own, have owned or at least have played a P Bass but most car drivers haven't. Ha, Ha, Ha!

[AndyTravis]

Just now, discreet said:

The difference being that most bass players own, have owned or at least have played a P Bass but most car drivers haven't. Ha, Ha, Ha!

It’s an analogy with flaws - but it’s set a benchmark...

🤷🏻‍♂️

[roblpm]

1 hour ago, EssentialTension said:

If only! But someone here is 23, I'm sure.

I don't think so..... They are too busy playing to post on forums? And anyway I don't think they know what a forum is? 

[discreet]

3 minutes ago, roblpm said:

I don't think so..... They are too busy playing to post on forums? And anyway I don't think they know what a forum is? 

So only younger bass players are busy? I didn't know that.

[Newfoundfreedom]

I realize beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but to me Fender guitars are, always were, and always will be ugly as sin. OK, admittedly they are "the" bass sound in so much as their share of real estate in recorded music. But that's just down to being in the right place at the right time and therefore being desirable because people want to emulate a certain sound. I would even go so far as to say some cheap Chinese manufactured guitars these days are actually better than Fenders. Of course that would never be an accepted point of view for "musicians" who are convinced that spending thousands make them sound better. A £200 Harley Benton in the right hands can sound as good, if not better than any Fender ever made. 

(Ooh, controversial!)

[drTStingray]

6 hours ago, ianrendall said:

Ok so, we as bassists can all agree that the granddaddy of basses is the P Bass, like it or not. And I assume that we can all agree that the three most recognisable basses in terms of sound are the P, the J and the Stingray.

So what if another came first? If the J or Ray came in 1951 instead of the P would they be the benchmark? Is the P’s success down to it just being the first?

You missed out Warwick, Wal, Alembic and several other iconic basses.

As we all know history can be manipulated. 

The story in the US was different from in the UK - but even then there is over emphasis on 'orchestral' players like Jamerson and Kaye - there were lots of others around. If you listen to what Carol Kaye says, she often played 'Dano bass' (click Bass) whilst someone else played 'Fender bass' and someone else played 'upright or string bass' - sometimes in the same track - I'd wager that's where the phrase 'Fender bass' came from. 

The attached thread covered why the Precision was probably the best bass available at the end of the 50s but was virtually unobtainium in the UK. 

According to quotes in Mo Foster's book, Hank Marvin had problems with the strings on his new top of the range custom red Strat (58 model) vibrating against the nut - and stuffed paper behind them - resulting in him in approaching Burns to get a similar guitar designed/made for them. Interesting stuff eh? 

Edited October 22, 2018 by drTStingray

[discreet]

17 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

A £200 Harley Benton in the right hands can sound as good, if not better than any Fender ever made. 

£200 for a Harley Benton? You was robbed!

[DaveFry]

Ron woz there .

 

[ianrendall]

When I originally mentioned P and J basses in the original post I didn’t mean specifically Fender as a company but rather the ‘type’ of bass - the design rather than the brand.

Which leads me to wonder what would have happened if it wasn’t Fender that popularised the bass guitar, but BC Rich. Would the dominating body shape of basses be spiky and pointy as the norm? Jamerson with a Warlock....hmm..

Edited October 22, 2018 by ianrendall

[AndyTravis]

1 minute ago, ianrendall said:

 

Which leads me to wonder what would have happened if it wasn’t Fender that popularised the bass guitar, but BC Rich. Would the dominating body shape of basses be spiky and pointy as the norm?

Well I think that goes back to the ergonomics thing...I know the Gibson explorer, Flying V, moderne and Futura were derided upon release...that was only 7 years after the Precision bass.

Leo Fender sort of followed the lines of an acoustic guitar, an hourglass but then added cutaways.

[Newfoundfreedom]

11 minutes ago, discreet said:

£200 for a Harley Benton? You was robbed!

£1000+ for a Fender. Who's the mug?

For the record I don't own a HB. I was just using it as an example of a perfectly serviceable cheap guitar. I wish they were around 30 years ago when I started playing, when you would pay at least twice that amount for an absolute pile of sh#t. My point being, that technology and manufacturing has moved on massively in the past few decades, and good instruments can and are now produced at a much lower cost. 

Does a 2 grand Fender sound any better than a £200 made in China bass? I bet 99% of the audience wouldn't know the difference. 

[AndyTravis]

19 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

£1000+ for a Fender. Who's the mug?

For the record I don't own a HB. I was just using it as an example of a perfectly serviceable cheap guitar. I wish they were around 30 years ago when I started playing, when you would pay at least twice that amount for an absolute pile of sh#t. My point being, that technology and manufacturing has moved on massively in the past few decades, and good instruments can and are now produced at a much lower cost. 

Does a 2 grand Fender sound any better than a £200 made in China bass? I bet 99% of the audience wouldn't know the difference. 

Having owned 2 basses which fall into this demographic...yes it does.

having sold instruments from £89-£20k for 12 years in previous employment...yes.

its what difference it makes to you personally, if you have a budget of £200 for a bass, do you even compare it to the £2000 one? If you want to spend £2000 do you entertain the £200 bass? If you’re looking for a bass to do a certain job, I dunno - ‘I fancy a violin bass’ then you’ll test various types and ascertain what you want to spend.

There was an old test we used to do for Gibson guitar events...people would want to know (and often would lament at length) about whether or not the Les Pauls by Epiphone were £1500 “worse” than the Gibson. Surely it stands to reason that the mahogany body and neck with Maple cap etc should just do the same thing - often, the customer paying £400 wanted to make the point of “there’s no difference, this is just made in the Far East”...

We’d sit down and play a £399 Les Paul by Epiphone (unplugged) and it sounded clacky and plastic. We’d play a Les Paul Standard for about £1400 and it was acoustically louder, better seperation of notes and from a players perspective led to more vibration or positive feedback into your hands. Then we’d pull down a £3699 custom shop R8 Les Paul and it was the same difference again - louder, warmer and much more sustain.

It is a law of diminishing returns - does it mean Epiphone Les Pauls are crap? Nope - they’re great for £399 or whatever they are now, but it was an easier way of demonstrating what that money gets you.

That does translate into a good amp too - if it didn’t matter, they wouldn’t be doing it - there would be no point.

Again, in the wrong hands - a £4000 custom shop sounds like crap no matter what.

The assumption being that if you’re spending £4000, you’ll have either a decent idea of what you’re doing...and if you don’t, you’ve got more money than sense, but one hell of a nice guitar.

One of the worst guitars I’ve ever played was a Koa Breedlove which was £12,000 just sounded dead. But that was very much a “look at what we can do” showpiece. 

And I have played a Taylor acoustic made out of Pallets which was ace.

And a Fylde made of Whiskey Barrels which smelt great. But wasn’t my tipple sound wise.

 

now, can I get back to willy jokes and Giraffe pictures?

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by AndyTravis

[discreet]

1 hour ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

£1000+ for a Fender. Who's the mug?

For the record I don't own a HB. I was just using it as an example of a perfectly serviceable cheap guitar. 

I know what you're saying, but my point is, £200 is WAY too expensive for a Harley Benton bass.

I've had several and would defy anyone to identify it in a blind test. But if I could afford it, would I buy a pre-CBS Fender? I think I probably would. 

[AndyTravis]

Just now, discreet said:

I know what you're saying, but my point is, £200 is WAY too expensive for a Harley Benton bass.

I've had several and would defy anyone to identify it in a blind test. But if I could afford it, would I buy a pre-CBS Fender? I think I probably would. 

Not quite a blind test...although he is colour blind.

my best mate has a MIJ 51, and we sat with that and my (now gone) 55 custom shop.

It felt and sounded more alive...

Silly me for selling that bass...

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Burns-bass]

7 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Having owned 2 basses which fall into this demographic...yes it does.

having sold instruments from £89-£20k for 12 years in previous employment...yes.

its what difference it makes to you personally, if you have a budget of £200 for a bass, do you even compare it to the £2000 one? If you want to spend £2000 do you entertain the £200 bass? If you’re looking for a bass to do a certain job, I dunno - ‘I fancy a violin bass’ then you’ll test various types and ascertain what you want to spend.

There was an old test we used to do for Gibson guitar events...people would want to know (and often would lament at length) about whether or not the Les Pauls by Epiphone were £1500 “worse” than the Gibson. Surely it stands to reason that the mahogany body and neck with Maple cap etc should just do the same thing - often, the customer paying £400 wanted to make the point of “there’s no difference, this is just made in the Far East”...

We’d sit down and play a £399 Les Paul by Epiphone (unplugged) and it sounded clacky and plastic. We’d play a Les Paul Standard for about £1400 and it was acoustically louder, better seperation of notes and from a players perspective led to more vibration or positive feedback into your hands. Then we’d pull down a £3699 custom shop R8 Les Paul and it was the same difference again - louder, warmer and much more sustain.

It is a law of diminishing returns - does it mean Epiphone Les Pauls are crap? Nope - they’re great for £399 or whatever they are now, but it was an easier way of demonstrating what that money gets you.

That does translate into a good amp too - if it didn’t matter, they wouldn’t be doing it - there would be no point.

Again, in the wrong hands - a £4000 custom shop sounds like crap no matter what.

The assumption being that if you’re spending £4000, you’ll have either a decent idea of what you’re doing...and if you don’t, you’ve got more money than sense, but one hell of a nice guitar.

One of the worst guitars I’ve ever played was a Koa Breedlove which was £12,000 just sounded dead. But that was very much a “look at what we can do” showpiece. 

And I have played a Taylor acoustic made out of Pallets which was ace.

And a Fylde made of Whiskey Barrels which smelt great. But wasn’t my tipple sound wise.

 

now, can I get back to willy jokes and Giraffe pictures?

 

At the risk of incensing you I can see how this plays out on guitar, where the notes are much more expressive, the use of accents and embellishments and chords and so on.

On bass, next the majority of situations, the quality of the note and the resonant qualities of the instrument are going to matter less. 

In my experience my £150 Jap-built Squier is more expressive and rich instrument than a US Strat that retails at 10 times the price. When I played  if gigs and recorded my Jap Geddy Lee jazz was liked more by all than my 66 Jazz. 

If I had spent £10k on a guitar (and I have) I’d look for every justification why that money was well spent. We can hear all sorts of things if we want too (see blind tears of high priced audio cables, or anything with gold connectors).

 

[AndyTravis]

11 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

At the risk of incensing you I can see how this plays out on guitar, where the notes are much more expressive, the use of accents and embellishments and chords and so on.

On bass, next the majority of situations, the quality of the note and the resonant qualities of the instrument are going to matter less. 

In my experience my £150 Jap-built Squier is more expressive and rich instrument than a US Strat that retails at 10 times the price. When I played  if gigs and recorded my Jap Geddy Lee jazz was liked more by all than my 66 Jazz. 

If I had spent £10k on a guitar (and I have) I’d look for every justification why that money was well spent. We can hear all sorts of things if we want too (see blind tears of high priced audio cables, or anything with gold connectors).

 

I’m not incensed...

I was just sharing my two penneth, which ultimately shouldn’t and most likely won’t influence anyone’s wallet nor decision making 😉

Cables - Again, they do make a difference. Spent an afternoon (well, an hour or so on a quiet weekday) with 4 different cables at £5/£20/£40 and £100 ish.

I agree that down the dog and duck this all really doesn’t matter. 

 

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, AndyTravis said:

I’m not incensed...

I was just sharing my two penneth, which ultimately shouldn’t and most likely won’t influence anyone’s wallet nor decision making 😉

Cables - Again, they do make a difference. Spent an afternoon (well, an hour or so on a quiet weekday) with 4 different cables at £5/£20/£40 and £100 ish.

I agree that down the dog and duck this all really doesn’t matter. 

 

Agreed. Instrument cables are different to the typical audio cables people spend a fortune on.

Being brutally honest, if you're not much of a player it doesn't matter how much you spend on a guitar, cables or amp...

Oh, and the Precision was the first mass market bass that captured the attention of players and the public. They're pretty agricultural when you play an older one, but they do the job. When I interviewed Carol Kaye and a few other studio players they had no real reverence for older instruments. She also hated jazz basses too. Strange woman.

[AndyTravis]

15 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

When I interviewed Carol Kaye and a few other studio players they had no real reverence for older instruments. She also hated jazz basses too. Strange woman.

I’ve seen her play an Aria Pro II avante and An ibanez SRX. Both with flats and a pick. She’s ace.

And agreed on the “not much of a player” sentiment.

I once held a Custom Shop ‘Peter Green’ Les Paul (which incidentally was a bit of a dog of a guitar) for a guy who was collecting - he flew over from Norway to buy it (I’m sure it was about £9000). When he arrived he asked “Can I hear it?” So I plugged him into a nice orange AD Combo and handed it over “no, no, can you play it?” So I did...a rough version of albatross and the obvious pigeon blues crap (best I can muster, don’t really play much guitar - but it was passable) he replied “wow - you’re a real accomplished player!”. The other guitar playing lads in the shop robbed me for months over that quote.

He then sat and strummed between G/A/D for 5 minutes, paid up and left. Later ordered a perspex lidded Rick case for it and sent us a picture of it on his wall...Odd.

Edited October 23, 2018 by AndyTravis