Modes...don't some sound weird?? Discordant?

[PawelG]

10 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

The guy is talking a lot, but his approach is really brilliant ! 

I'll watch this again and translate in French or a friend of mine who never understood in 30 years, and I tried to explain, but he was only focused on the scales themselves. Now, I think he'll understand. Thanks a lot for this @PawelG

To me, Mr Wellington is one of the best teachers out there.

[Dood]

6 hours ago, Graham said:

I use them all the time when embellishing basslines, to make sure what I'm playing is in tune with the rest of the song

For instance, in Treasure by Bruno Mars, at the end of the verse phrase I'll play notes in the Lydian mode as the verse ends on the fourth of the Ab major

Yes and no, I'd say. The Ab chord is diatonic, but the key is Cm. So, whereas you may be playing a pattern on the bass neck that "looks Lydian" You're still actually just playing the Cm scale from Ab to Ab. Or to put it another way, the piece of music doesn't have a Lydian sound to it. (Lydian is major in character, this track is minor.)

I'll also just tack on to the end of this by way of an edit, before I picked up my bass to check the key, by ear I could hear the strong pull back to a 'i' chord, in this case being the C. Lydian again would be pulling my ear back to a major chord. (Major 7 as an example)

Edited October 24, 2018 by Dood

[iestynt1]

23 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Does anybody else find that some sound weird? I'm thinking the Em7 scale (Phrygian) in particular...

I'm also curious to whether anybody actually uses them and where/how?

 

some modes sound ‘discordant’ but I think that’s where the flavour comes from. E Phrygian (which is the same notes as C Ionian, D Dorian, F Lydian G mixolydian A aeolian B locrian) Is used a lot in Spanish music. Really the only difference in E phyrigian and C Ionian is the start/finish note. Google songs using Locrian or Dorian and you’ll find a host of popular tunes which focus on that mode. Lots of riff based tunes use a particular mode and jaco pastorius used mixolydian a lot in his playing - check out The Chicken which is based mainly around mixolydian with a few extra notes thrown in here in there. 

“Anybody uses them and where/how?” You can use modes/arpeggios in every chord of a song. I.e. if a song is in the key of ‘C’ and the guitars/keys play a C chord, play notes 1 3 5 (and 7) from Ionian mode. Then if they play a E chord play notes 1 3 & 5 from E Phrygian. It all sounds complicated but when you get your head around it, it’s pretty simple. 

[Graham]

11 hours ago, Dood said:

Yes and no, I'd say. The Ab chord is diatonic, but the key is Cm. So, whereas you may be playing a pattern on the bass neck that "looks Lydian" You're still actually just playing the Cm scale from Ab to Ab. Or to put it another way, the piece of music doesn't have a Lydian sound to it. (Lydian is major in character, this track is minor.)

I'll also just tack on to the end of this by way of an edit, before I picked up my bass to check the key, by ear I could hear the strong pull back to a 'i' chord, in this case being the C. Lydian again would be pulling my ear back to a major chord. (Major 7 as an example)

What makes you say it's in Cm?

I'd have said the key was Ab maj, where the verse progression is I VII VI II III

(I was typing from memory earlier and should have said I end the verse on C phrygian as to my mind it ends of the III not the IV)

If it were C minor, the progression would be VI, V, IV, VII, I but I don't get what makes it a minor key rather than a major? Because of the chord it resolves to? Cheers

[lowdown]

2 hours ago, Graham said:

What makes you say it's in Cm?

I'd have said the key was Ab maj, where the verse progression is I VII VI II III

(I was typing from memory earlier and should have said I end the verse on C phrygian as to my mind it ends of the III not the IV)

If it were C minor, the progression would be VI, V, IV, VII, I but I don't get what makes it a minor key rather than a major? Because of the chord it resolves to? Cheers

 

I think it is just a good old Eb major (three flats), with the C minor being the relative minor.

I am not sure there is a Db anywhere in the tune/chords. If the key was Ab major there would be Db’s in the key sig.

Chord three is used a lot (G minor - natural D’s). The verse starts on chord IV (Ab major 7th).

Just my opinion of course. 

 

[Dad3353]

From Wikipedia ...

...
"Treasure" was written by Bruno Mars, Philip Lawrence, Ari Levine and Phredley Brown. Mars, Lawrence and Levine form The Smeezingtons; they produced the song under that name. According to the digital sheet music, the song was composed in common time and in the key of E♭ major with a tempo of 112 beats per minute. The chord progression of A♭M7–(Gm7)–Fm7–Gm7–Cm–(B♭) repeats throughout the song, changing only to end phrases on B♭9sus (A♭/B♭), a deceptive cadence. Mars' vocals range from the low note of B♭3 to the high note of E♭5. Its instrumentation comes from the guitar, piano, electronic keyboard and bass.
...

[Dood]

4 hours ago, Graham said:

What makes you say it's in Cm?

I'd have said the key was Ab maj, where the verse progression is I VII VI II III

(I was typing from memory earlier and should have said I end the verse on C phrygian as to my mind it ends of the III not the IV)

If it were C minor, the progression would be VI, V, IV, VII, I but I don't get what makes it a minor key rather than a major? Because of the chord it resolves to? Cheers

 

2 hours ago, lowdown said:

 

I think it is just a good old Eb major (three flats), with the C minor being the relative minor.

I am not sure there is a Db anywhere in the tune/chords. If the key was Ab major there would be Db’s in the key sig.

Chord three is used a lot (G minor - natural D’s). The verse starts on chord IV (Ab major 7th).

Just my opinion of course. 

 

Graham, Lowdown has part of my answer here. Also, when you listen to the progression there is a home chord. A gravity towards a particular resolution and that is the Cm chord. In any modal progression it's about that resolution and how the progression builds the sound of that mode. So, although Ab Major does appear at the start of the progression, it's not "home". 

Now, if the song did indeed resolve to Ab Major then yes then we could be looking at Lydian as a mode, but the pointers of a Lydian chord progression for me aren't there, it's more the Cm vibe. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Dood

[Dood]

2 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

From Wikipedia ...

...
"Treasure" was written by Bruno Mars, Philip Lawrence, Ari Levine and Phredley Brown. Mars, Lawrence and Levine form The Smeezingtons; they produced the song under that name. According to the digital sheet music, the song was composed in common time and in the key of E♭ major with a tempo of 112 beats per minute. The chord progression of A♭M7–(Gm7)–Fm7–Gm7–Cm–(B♭) repeats throughout the song, changing only to end phrases on B♭9sus (A♭/B♭), a deceptive cadence. Mars' vocals range from the low note of B♭3 to the high note of E♭5. Its instrumentation comes from the guitar, piano, electronic keyboard and bass.
...

Lovely, though I would say Cm, the relative minor key due to the resolution mentioned and severe lack of an Eb major chord in the song  

[jrixn1]

16 hours ago, Dood said:

Yes and no, I'd say. The Ab chord is diatonic, but the key is Cm. So, whereas you may be playing a pattern on the bass neck that "looks Lydian" You're still actually just playing the Cm scale from Ab to Ab.

100% agree with this.  Modal compositions do exist -- but `Treasure` is not one of them.  A lot of the discussion around modes can be bypassed by just pointing out "play the notes from the key you are in".

Quote

by ear I could hear the strong pull back to a 'i' chord, in this case being the C. Lydian again would be pulling my ear back to a major chord. (Major 7 as an example)

Also 100% agree with this.  The Ab, Fm, and Gm create tension, which is then resolved on return to Cm.

 

[Teebs]

I misread the thread title as "Mods...don't some sound wierd?? Discordant?"

Sorry Mods.  🤣

[thebigyin]

I have dabbled learning them but in all honesty don't understand them, the more I try to delve into the theory side of music the more daunting it gets! Watched countless youtube vids ect some contradict one another saying you need to learn this that and the other all over the neck, others say you only need to learn this blah, blah all very confusing at times, there are some great and helpful sights ect which make it understandable but for the average pub player wanting to improve some go way over the head...at the end of the day if your playing covers down your local to a whizzed up rowdy audience who couldn't give a toss about what your playing. I think if your wanting to play solos maybe there useful but I doubt they are any use to the average Joe, I would love to improve but just not good or bright enough to make it all click unfortunately.

[Reggaebass]

1 hour ago, thebigyin said:

I have dabbled learning them but in all honesty don't understand them, the more I try to delve into the theory side of music the more daunting it gets! Watched countless youtube vids ect some contradict one another saying you need to learn this that and the other all over the neck, others say you only need to learn this blah, blah all very confusing at times, there are some great and helpful sights ect which make it understandable but for the average pub player wanting to improve some go way over the head...at the end of the day if your playing covers down your local to a whizzed up rowdy audience who couldn't give a toss about what your playing. I think if your wanting to play solos maybe there useful but I doubt they are any use to the average Joe, I would love to improve but just not good or bright enough to make it all click unfortunately.

I’ve been playing bass for years and up until 4 years ago I didn’t even know what a mode was so I started studying bass theory and the more I read the more things fell into place.  This chart maybe of use to you  😀   Daric Bennett has some great lessons on them

[thebigyin]

9 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

I’ve been playing bass for years and up until 4 years ago I didn’t even know what a mode was so I started studying bass theory and the more I read the more things fell into place.  This chart maybe of use to you  😀   Daric Bennett has some great lessons on them

Thankyou

[iestynt1]

Hi thebigyin, the annoying thing is modes have this mystical aura about them, probably enhanced by the fact they’re named after Ancient Greek tribes, but... you do already know your modes! Further more, you could sing every single mode to me in about 30 seconds with no additional knowledge to what you have now. Problem is, you don’t know that you know them.

If I said sing the major scale (doh ray me fah so la te doh)you could do it easily. Now do the same thing BUT instead of starting from doh, start from Ray (Ray me fah soh lah te doh Ray), now start from “me... fah soh lah te doh Ray me...

if you did this through the 7 starting notes you would’ve just sang out loud all of the modes - Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian mixolydian aeolian Locrian

You do know your modes. Just learn the notes on the guitar - the easy bit

[TheGreek]

I was baffled by the Greek names TBH....then I found out that all modes are the whole notes (no flats or sharps) starting with different root notes - c to c is a major scale, d to d is minor scale, etc - the Greek names are well documented all over the net...

Don't need to be a genius to be able to work these out yourself, lots of diagrams (thanks @Reggaebass ) available via Google.

[Bob Lord]

Slightly eggheadish observation on modes, since we're going down that rabbit hole: note that for each mode you can relate it to a mode either side of it, with one note flattened or sharpened. i.e. C mixolydian is the same as C Ionian but with the 7th flattened. C dorian is the same as C mixolydian but with the 3rd flattened. C aeolian is the same as C dorian but with the 6th flattened. C phrygian mode is the same as C aeolian but with the 2nd flattened.. and so on

Two things to note: you can think of the modes as increasingly 'flattened' versions of themselves (or sharpened, if you go the other way), where they can almost be subjectively ranked in terms of how light or dark they are. And also note that the notes that get flattened follow a specific pattern. Above, we flattened the notes of a major scale, in this order: major 7th, Major 3rd, Major 6th, Major 2nd. Notice that they follow the cycle of fifths (up a 4th/down a 5th). Next you'd flatten the Perfect 5th to get locrian. If you followed this to its conclusion you'd end up flattening the root to get B lydian. So there's an argument to be made that lydian is actually the most 'major' mode, as it seems to be at the top of this chain

 

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Bob Lord
grammar

[Reggaebass]

If you are interested in the modes this is worth a watch , he basically breaks them 

down  into their arpeggios ,  the 1st , 3rd ,5th and 7th  note of each mode ,

 

[Japhet]

This (and Part 2) might give a flavour of what modes can do and how they make a major scale sound totally different, even exotic depending on what the root note is. The key thing is that it all depends on what chords you're underpinning the mode with.

 

[leftybassman392]

Not wishing to confuse people any more than necessary, but it is worth bearing in mind that this set of modes is the one that goes with the major scale as a parent.

The modes of the melodic minor (ascending) are whole new ballgame.

[Norris]

How many times have I read this thread title as:

Mods...don't some sound weird?? Discordant?

I don't think I've heard one speak "in the flesh"

Bless them all

[EliasMooseblaster]

18 hours ago, leftybassman392 said:

Not wishing to confuse people any more than necessary, but it is worth bearing in mind that this set of modes is the one that goes with the major scale as a parent.

The modes of the melodic minor (ascending) are whole new ballgame.

I'm sure we'll get on to Ritchie Blackmore's tasteful use of the 5th mode of the harmonic minor (sometimes known as the 'double Phrygian,' some tell me), in Gates of Babylon in due course!

[leftybassman392]

1 hour ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

I'm sure we'll get on to Ritchie Blackmore's tasteful use of the 5th mode of the harmonic minor (sometimes known as the 'double Phrygian,' some tell me), in Gates of Babylon in due course!

Well since you brought it up...

Not a scale I've knowingly used, but for completeness,

root, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7, octave. It has a number of names, although 'Double Phrygian' is not one I can find. Or make sense of now that I think of it. 

There is a convention (not universal, but common) of naming scales in terms of their nearest standard modal counterpart, according to which it would be called a Phrygian major third. Oddly though, as far as I can tell nobody uses this name. Phrygian Dominant seems to be the standard nomenclature (which also - sort of - sounds a little bit - but not all that much - like the Double Phrygian you've heard).

 

No need to thank me.

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by leftybassman392

[EliasMooseblaster]

10 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said:

There is a convention (not universal, but common) of naming scales in terms of their nearest standard modal counterpart, according to which it would be called a Phrygian major third. Oddly though, as far as I can tell nobody uses this name. Phrygian Dominant seems to be the standard nomenclature (which also - sort of - sounds a little bit - but not all that much - like the Double Phrygian you've heard)

 

Do excuse me - it's Monday morning and Daylight Savings have been playing havoc with Mini-Moose's already chaotic sleeping patterns. Dominant Phrygian was the way my guitarist friend and theory buff described it to me. I'm mixing up the Phrygian Dominant with the Double Harmonic minor...which it happens to resemble very closely, give or take a flattened 7th between them!

[Nicko]

On ‎24‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:16, EliasMooseblaster said:

...and then there's the Locrian. Always the last one to get picked for the team, but I'm led to believe that Bjork used it to great effect in Army of Me.

I have a scale book at home which includes the major modes, and the suggested use for the locrian mode is to improvise solos with it until you get sacked from the band.

[leftybassman392]

1 hour ago, Nicko said:

I have a scale book at home which includes the major modes, and the suggested use for the locrian mode is to improvise solos with it until you get sacked from the band.

👌