Bass drum mic creating havoc with my sound

[Japhet]

58 minutes ago, steve-bbb said:

Keyboard players who have anything more than 56 keys should be considered delinquent and nonconfomist and their left hand activities should be closely monitored

Used to play with a keyboard player whose favorite joke was;

How many bass players does it take to play a bass line?

None. The keyboard player can do it all with one hand.

I used to add 'BADLY' on the end if he ever wheeled it out on a gig.

[bassace]

2 hours ago, Japhet said:

Used to play with a keyboard player whose favorite joke was;

How many bass players does it take to play a bass line?

None. The keyboard player can do it all with one hand.

I used to add 'BADLY' on the end if he ever wheeled it out on a gig.

I thought that one was ‘How many bass players does it take to change a lightbulb?’

Higher irony quotient, you see.

[Japhet]

8 minutes ago, bassace said:

I thought that one was ‘How many bass players does it take to change a lightbulb?’

Higher irony quotient, you see.

I think you're right. Rubbish joke either way.

[Happy Jack]

Anyway, back on subject, sometimes mic'ing up the percussion can get a little ... strange.

 

[Bridgehouse]

Dat tractor tho.. 

[Monkey Steve]

I've seen a lot of drummers who want to put the kick drum through the PA, so it's not a surprise to see this.

I think this is the drummer's equivalent of the guitarist who is massively loud but insisting that he needs to turn up because his cab is pointed at his ankles and he doesn't understand physics: the drummer can hear all of his other drums perfectly loudly because they are all facing his head, but the bass drum is projecting forwards, so he can't hear it as well and thinks it must therefore be far too quiet because he lacks the intellect and imagination to consider that people out front may be able to hear him perfectly well.

The band I've just started playing with have a novel solution to this issue.  The drummer has an acoustic kit with the exception of the bass drum which is a small electronic pad, which goes through the PA.  This works brilliantly as he gets to hear it in the mix without deafening the rest of us with the actual bass drum volume out front.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Monkey Steve

[Norris]

23 hours ago, Noisyjon said:

 

IEMs are part of the solution here but to really sort this one out get him to look at shifting the amp setup for one of these systems:

https://www.porteranddavies.co.uk/products/

+1 a drummer I know well has one of these and swears by it. He plays some pretty big gigs too

What drummer wouldn't want to feel the power of his kick drum projected into his @rse?

[Dad3353]

35 minutes ago, Norris said:

...What drummer wouldn't want to feel the power of his kick drum projected into his @rse?

I think I'll pass on that one, thank you very much. 

[mep]

10 hours ago, mrtcat said:

Yeah boom is not what you want. A nice little push around 60hz  and then a bit of high end to give definition is usually all you want - much of the rest can be dialled out. I have to say that I've always found that running subs on aux makes it much easier to achieve this. More often than not, unless it's a really big venue, I just bleed in a little bit of low into the subs from the kick and it fattens up nicely. I also find that putting kick through a PA without subs usually sounds worse rather than better. You're asking a lot of your tops if you want them to do the whole 60hz bit. There aren't many relatively affordable tops (RCF 735/745 & BF FR800s excluded) that I've come across that can really cope with that.

We go for bass drum through a sub run on an aux in our band. Sounds great and easy to deal with. 

[barry021574]

This problem happened to me too, even when the kick drum mic was going through the PA. When it did, the drummer used to pull faces at me (as if it was something I was doing). Thankfully he didn't mic up the drums very often... we was too bloody loud without any extra help..!

[TimR]

One thing overlooked here is; what type of music does the drummer listen to outside the band. 

I played with a rock drummer in a function band. It was a constant battle. He wanted his drum kit to sound a certain way that really didn’t fit with the band. 

Trying to explain to him that he was a member of the band accompanying the vocals, not the centre of attention for everyone in the audience was impossible. 

Trying to explain that we couldn’t make his bass drum sound how he wanted because a PA amplifies what you put in and SISO applies, was impossible. 

Riding in his car was a painful experience as his music was constantly at 11 with all the bass turned up to 11 creating an unlistenable sludge.

I sat in a mixing session with him and after an hour the mix was unrecognisable as us and sounded awful. Luckily we ran out of time and left the engineer to sort the mix in his own and he undid all the mess after we had gone.

I genuinely think drummers hear things differently to the rest of us. 

Might be worth finding out what sound he is trying to get and then having the discussion as to whether that sound is possible and if it is how to achieve it or maybe for the drummer to have a rethink about his sound or his position in the band. 

[la bam]

Just have one guy doing your sound. That way you've no arguments at all. You'll end up with the best possible sound and no individual squabbling.

Having a bass drum and a bass amp just for the bass drum sound is pretty naive on numerous levels. Mainly though how on Earth does he think it's balanced for the crowd if he's in control of eq and volume, but sat behind a kit when the crowd are 50ft away hearing that amongst everything else.

PA all the way.

[KevB]

Yes I had problems and complaints from a couple of bands back from the other members that there was an issue with my bass sound. Considering the band leader was constantly banging on about how long he'd been playing at a good level and how much he knew technically it seemed to completely pass them by that the issue had only arisen since they had started messing about mic'ing the bass drum (for pub gigs!). My guess was that, as the drummer was basically an ex metal drummer that he was knocking seven bells out of the kick drum and the mic was moving enough to start picking up my backline and causing feedback. But no, they had me moving heaven and earth trying to fix 'my problem', wasting my time needlessly tinkering with my set up and EQ before, lo and behold, the mic eventually was forced off it's holder completely with a noticeable 'clunk'. They then started to investigate that it *might* just be an issue with the bass drum mic and not my set up after all. Beware of self proclaimed experts.

[Huge Hands]

Quote:

Anyway, back on subject, sometimes mic'ing up the percussion can get a little ... strange.

Thanks @Happy Jack - that made my day!

That tractor sounds a lot more reliable and smokes less than a lot of drummers I know!

 

[mrtcat]

Putting microphones on drums is perfectly acceptable in almost every situation as long as you have the knowledge for what you're doing and have the proper equipment to make it work. The OP's drummer has neither of these.

[TimR]

41 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

Putting microphones on drums is perfectly acceptable in almost every situation as long as you have the knowledge for what you're doing and have the proper equipment to make it work. The OP's drummer has neither of these.

And the drum kit sounds good in the first place. (Proper equipment?)

Edited November 7, 2018 by TimR

[grenadillabama]

On 28/10/2018 at 16:41, gjones said:

Put his bass amp out front. He doesn't need to hear it, unlike you who uses your amp as a monitor. If he insists on having it near him, therefore interfering with your bass sound, then he's obviously a tosser.

There are two local groups I like where nothing is mic'd and the bass drum is too quiet. One band has a 15/horn on each side (no subs). The other band has a 12/horn each side on a stand. I would bet the PA guy would not want the bass drum run through his PA. What to do then ? What your drummer did might work with a "natural" e.q. and the speaker in front enough not to feed back. Does your bass gtr go into his mic too much ? 

[Dad3353]

52 minutes ago, grenadillabama said:

...I would bet the PA guy would not want the bass drum run through his PA....

If you'll pardon me, this makes little sense. If the bass drum (or any other instrument...) needs to go through the PA to be heard, it should go through the PA, end of story. A band with a violin..? Maybe he'll bring his own local PA..? Then the harmonica player. Another local PA. Keys..? No, nt through FOH; bring your own PA... The list goes on.
A spot of drums (bass drum, overhead...) are easily mixed into any decent-enough 'tops only' PA. How do I know this..? It's what our band does, and many other bands I've played with or done the sound for. Such a system won't work for a stadium, naturally, but lifting any instrument into the mix for the audience is what the PA is for, no..? Obviously, a heavy-metal 'head-banging' raucous rock band would be a different affair, but I doubt that the bass drum be weak in such a formation in the first place..! 
It's a separate issue as to why the drum is so low in the first place, of course, but that's a whole other kettle of worms. 

[mep]

Been putting the bass drum through 15" full range tops for years and it works. The bass drum is the first to be lost in the mix so a little lift is what it needs. Now we have a sub and get that extra thump. 

[TimR]

“Not getting lost in the mix” and “chest thumpingly loud” are where the problem lies with bass drum through the PA. most of the bass drum presence is around 120hz, must drummers think it’s around -50hz. 

[intime-nick]

As a part-time bass player but full-time drum designer (for the best part of 25 or so years), and as mentioned a few times already, get a Porter & Davies drum throne system (the new BCX is great) and ditch the rather bizarre bass drum only amplification. Whether you need / want to put the BD through the PA is up to you but the P&D system will give him all he needs to feel the BD (and anything else you want to feed into it - we run a small amount of my bass guitar into it as well)

Pretty much all the drummers I know, having tried one, do not want to play a gig without it afterwards.  Combined with IEMs and you’ve got the best setup for any gig irrespective of venue size.  

[grenadillabama]

16 hours ago, mep said:

Been putting the bass drum through 15" full range tops for years and it works. The bass drum is the first to be lost in the mix so a little lift is what it needs. Now we have a sub and get that extra thump. 

Yes, but what if the P.A. was somewhat feeble, barely able to do two part vocal harmony ? I recall a Kustom with 100 watts (rated) and cabinets the size of shoeboxes with two 6.5" woofers and a piezo tweeter ? The band did not do stadium gigs-25 people was a good turnout. We needed a proper P.A.  The drummer had a 24" Ludwig bass drum but had a lazy bass drum foot. The strange thing is we got paying gigs !

[Dad3353]

13 minutes ago, grenadillabama said:

Yes, but what if the P.A. was somewhat feeble, barely able to do two part vocal harmony ? I recall a Kustom with 100 watts (rated) and cabinets the size of shoeboxes with two 6.5" woofers and a piezo tweeter ? The band did not do stadium gigs-25 people was a good turnout. We needed a proper P.A.  The drummer had a 24" Ludwig bass drum but had a lazy bass drum foot. The strange thing is we got paying gigs !

I'd suggest that, if the vocals are struggling to project, that's even more of a reason to not add an amplified bass drum..! In my experience, a 24" Ludwig bass drum is plenty, plenty powerful, even with a 'lazy' bass drum foot..! Micing that up in anything smaller than a stadium would be a real waste of a Ludwig.
Just sayin'; peace. 

[Phil Starr]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. You can do things like apply compression and eq to a miked kick and a drummer may be fond of that sort of tone. By and large kick is the drum you can't hear out in the audience without some sort of boost and not all drummers are shed builders. Equally anything below about 60Hz is usually an embarrassment of riches for most bass. It may be that by using a five you are encroaching upon his frequencies a little. As a band you'll sound best if you can lock in with the kick sonically as well in your timing. I suppose I'm saying be constructive. This is a sound engineers view.

"A common trick to getting a unified sound between kick and bass while retaining clarity is to boost the lows on the kick (60-80Hz) cut the low mids anywhere from 150Hz to 400Hz (sometimes called the mudrange) and boost the highs at around 3000Hz. This will provide a solid low end, remove some of the mud in the midrange and accentuate the attack of the kick pedal on the drum. For the bass, we do pretty much the opposite; cut the lows where you boosted them on the kick (60-80Hz) boost the bass at around 120 – 150Hz which will provide a full bass sound (while occupying the frequency space we made by cutting the kick drum in this range), and boost the highs at around 900Hz since bass also provides information in that range as well. In short, we are emphasizing the frequencies that are important to the sound of each, while cutting the frequencies where they can conflict. Try this technique. You’ll get a full bottom with a clear thump with a defined attack in the kick and a clear, full bass."

[Dad3353]

50 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm going to play devil's advocate here...
...
...This is a sound engineers view.

"A common trick...
...
...You’ll get a full bottom with a clear thump with a defined attack in the kick and a clear, full bass."

Whilst, from a sound engineer standpoint, I might agree with this approach, I don't think it to be an an appropriate response to the problem evoked. Before getting into the need for amplifying a bass drum in the kind of venues envisaged, I'd recommend using the right tools for the sound required. Firstly, of course, a decent drum..! The batter and resonant head will play a part, as will its tuning, and eventual damping. The choice of beater comes into play, too. So, to resume, a hard beater (wood, or plastic...) will give the attack accentuated above. A resonant head and pre-EQed batter head will give as solid a 'thump' as anything (Evans do fine bass drum heads for this; a clear EMAD, for instance, for batter, and an EQ3 for reso..?). Little internal damping, and sympathetic tuning should make any decent shell responsive enough, and would, indeed, sound all the better for not being thrashed constantly..! Here's a review of beaters...

43 Bass Drum Beaters Reviewed ...

Surely something in there to get the best from the kit before resorting to a separate PA, for pub gigs..?