Daisy chaining cabs with different ohms & cones

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Chris - am I correct in understanding that your preferred combination is a SM + SC and for you this trumps 2 x SCs or a BB2?

The simple answer is, yes.

The longer and more complicated answer is. . . to my ear the sound from the SM added a nice bit of mid range and top end to my SC and I did prefer this to my SC + SC, but I'd say it's a small margin of preference. I can't afford the SM at the moment so I've recently been adding more top on the bass which I think has improved my sound.

IMO this isn't comparing apples and pears, it's more Pink Lady's and Jazz apples. After 2 years I'm still happily gigging both SC's and, to throw a spanner in the works, I'm also happily gigging my 2 Two10's in a rather loud blues/rock band. 

If you are interested in hearing what an SM can do for your SC, give Alex a call and ask if you can borrow their demo SM and use it on a gig or 2.

Maybe you'll hate it, or maybe you'll start saving.

[Al Krow]

So picking up where I left off a few months back, I didn't in the end go for the VK 115 for the various reasons set out earlier in this thread, in particular the preference for matching cone sizes by most folk who were 'in the know'.

I've recently been offered the possibility of adding a VK210 MNT 8ohm / 600W to my VK210 LNT 4ohm / 1200W

The MNT (voiced 45Hz to 16kHz)  is a bit lighter and a little brighter sounding than the LNT (voiced 40Hz to 16kHz) I suspect, however, not quite the same amount of difference as between the SM / SC cabs that Chris is using. Dimensions => permit them to be stacked (or used apart)

If I've done the math correctly, then when daisy chained together:

• the combined ohm will 2.67 ohms.
• but also that 2/3 of the amp power should flow to the the 4 ohm LNT and 1/3 to the 8 ohm MNT, which is exactly the right ratio given their different power handling capacity

=> use the MNT for rehearsals and pub gigs - where portability will be valued by me (I guess, ideally I'd probably like a BF BB2, given how light these cabs are, but they just don't appear to be coming up used and new ones are around £894 these days including a cover & P&P for the silver cloth version, which seems extravagant for a rehearsal / pub gig cab)

=> use the LNT for functions

=> put them together when the Wembley** gig eventually happens

Any flaws in the thinking above?

 

**that's the Jubilee Underground Station rather than the Stadium btw.

[HazBeen]

I am not sure why you feel the MNT would be brighter?

The main difference will be dispersion, as the LNT is a vertical config and the MNT a diagonal 210. I have alway highly preferred vertical 210 (2 of them stacked) so would probably not go for this combo.

More importantly as both cabs I believe have the same efficiency, 1 would be louder than the other. About 3dB or so if you are feeding both from 1 amp if I am not mistaken (on absorbs 33% the other 66% of current).

Edited March 17, 2019 by HazBeen

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

I am not sure why you feel the MNT would be brighter?

I've had one before and in my experience it was. 

I think we could expect it to be because the LNT is voiced to go lower (40Hz vs 45Hz).

5 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

The main difference will be dispersion, as the LNT is a vertical config and the MNT a diagonal 210. I have alway highly preferred vertical 210 (2 of them stacked) so would probably not go for this combo.

More importantly as both cabs I believe have the same efficiency, 1 would be louder than the other. About 3dB so if you are feeding both from 1 amp if I am not mistaken (on absorbs 33% the other 66% of power).

Noted re the volume, which is a good point, thanks. I suspect the combination (if I did ever end up with using them both) would be with the MNT being used as a stage monitor for me and the band, where the lower volume would make sense.

In practice I can't currently really ever see myself needing any more output for the audience than the single 4ohm LNT will be able to produce alone - e.g. it can handle the full 900W from my DG amp.

[HazBeen]

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I think we could expect it to be because the LNT is voiced to go lower (40Hz vs 45Hz).

I would expect 5 Hz difference in bass response does not make a big difference in how bright the cab “feels”. There may be other factors, but the 5 Hz will not make it much deeper.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Al,

Frequency response isn't a good way to assess speakers like this. The figures are usually taken at the two extremes where the sound output has fallen 10dB. Speakers are never flat between these two extremes unless DSP has been applied and the brightness for bass won't be the result of the extremes, your bass pickup just won't have any response above 10kHz anyway so that is all irrelevant. Brightness is more likely to be due to a peak in the upper mids or maybe an over-enthusiastic horn driver. Have a look at the frequency response of the Eminence driver here, you'll see the sort of peak in mid response that is typical of many bass drivers.

https://www.eminence.com/pdf/Beta_12A-2.pdf

you'll also see that there are lots of ups and downs in the response curve, it's only smooth at the bottom because they've put in a calculated response, below 200Hz the design of the cab will shape the response so that may be lumpy too.

this is one of the reasons for not mixing cabs. All those lumps and dips create the timbre of the sound your cab will make, any other cab will have similar highs and lows in response and they won't line up most of the time. Where they do the speaker will shout out at you where the peaks coincide, where they don't there'll be a blurring as peaks in one cancel highs in the other and you'll have a completely different timbre to either cab on their own. In your case complicated by the mismatched impedances. In practice I think the 4 ohm cab will dominate so much the other one might as well not be there. 

If you want to own these cabs just because you do then that's great but it isn't really a plan to use them together and certainly not without trying the combination out before you part with any money.

[mcnach]

15 hours ago, HazBeen said:

I would expect 5 Hz difference in bass response does not make a big difference in how bright the cab “feels”. There may be other factors, but the 5 Hz will not make it much deeper.

 

+1

differences in the low end can make one sound like it has 'more body' or something, but that's not where 'brightness' is. 

And 40 vs 45Hz is negligible unless you're looking for super low dub performances.

[Al Krow]

 

16 minutes ago, mcnach said:

+1

differences in the low end can make one sound like it has 'more body' or something, but that's not where 'brightness' is. 

And 40 vs 45Hz is negligible unless you're looking for super low dub performances.

40 Hz isn't really that low. It's just below the fundamental on the open E string. 

31 Hz is the open B string fundamental. 

20 Hz to 30 Hz is super low dub territory. 

< 20 Hz is sub audio crud which should IMO be given a good thumpinatoring. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Al Krow

[HazBeen]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

40 Hz isn't really that low. It's just below the fundamental on the open E string. 

31 Hz is the open B string fundamental. 

20 Hz to 30 Hz is super low dub territory. 

< 20 Hz is sub audio crud which should IMO be given a good thumpinatoring. 

Since the difference between 40-45 Hz is negligible, the difference in low end frequency response will have nothing to do with 1 sounding brighter: "I think we could expect it to be because the LNT is voiced to go lower (40Hz vs 45Hz)."

Without wanting to derail this with too techical waffle that I only grasp slightly, I think McNach is not  indicating that 40 Hz is dub territory per se.

The fundamental in the 30-40 Hz range you feel more than actually hear. The predominant energy comes from 60-80 Hz range and probably the octave above (hence a low B at 30.87 Hz will still sound good on a 40 Hz cab). 

Coincidentally double 20 Hz = 40 Hz, which may be what McNach was referring to when he mentioned 'dub".

But really we are getting into territory where we have some real specialists on the forum (BFM, Alex Claber) that will be able to provide much better input than I would be able to.

[LukeFRC]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

40 Hz isn't really that low. It's just below the fundamental on the open E string. 

31 Hz is the open B string fundamental. 

20 Hz to 30 Hz is super low dub territory. 

< 20 Hz is sub audio crud which should IMO be given a good thumpinatoring. 

Most bass cabs won’t aim to reproduce much of the fundamental. Apart from ACME. 

[jrixn1]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

31 Hz is the open B string fundamental. 

The manufacturer's marketing for my speaker is "frequency response: 50 Hz - 20000 Hz", and I use a 12dB/octave HPF at 60Hz - and I think my low B sounds pretty good! 
 

[chris_b]

Chaps, forget the fundamental frequencies of notes and strings. It is a irrelevant distraction.

Reproducing 31Hz has nothing to do with getting a great sound out of a 5 string bass.

[mcnach]

12 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

40 Hz isn't really that low. It's just below the fundamental on the open E string. 

31 Hz is the open B string fundamental. 

20 Hz to 30 Hz is super low dub territory. 

< 20 Hz is sub audio crud which should IMO be given a good thumpinatoring. 

 

But we don't really get much of the fundamental playing the lower notes on our bass, which is why you can 'hear' a strong low B even on cabs that roll off below 45 Hz.

I think the classic Ampeg 810 had a threshold around something like 55 Hz, with 40Hz being 10db down or lower... yet I doubt many people find them poor with 5 string basses. 

Regardless... the difference between 40 and 45Hz nominal threshold is not why one cab sounded brighter than the other.

[mcnach]

9 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

The manufacturer's marketing for my speaker is "frequency response: 50 Hz - 20000 Hz", and I use a 12dB/octave HPF at 60Hz - and I think my low B sounds pretty good! 
 

 

Indeed!

I use my variable HPF with enthusiasm, and it's counterintuitive initially when you realise how high you can go while still producing a strong punchy bass sound.

[Al Krow]

56 minutes ago, mcnach said:

Regardless... the difference between 40 and 45Hz nominal threshold is not why one cab sounded brighter than the other.

Agreed.

54 minutes ago, mcnach said:

Indeed!

I use my variable HPF with enthusiasm, and it's counterintuitive initially when you realise how high you can go while still producing a strong punchy bass sound.

Maybe not so counterintuitive once you've had a listen to the low note fundamentals (which I thought I'd better do, following the discussion above!)  

Low B string - fundamental

Low E string - fundamental

Low B string - first harmonic (i.e. one octave up from the low B)

Low E string - first harmonic (i.e. one octave up = low E string on a 6 string guitar)

(Recommend you use a decent pair of headphones).

Edited March 18, 2019 by Al Krow

[LukeFRC]

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Recommend you use a decent pair of headphones

Again - how decent? How low do they go? 

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

Again - how decent? How low do they go? 

Get the best that you can afford, and be content with your lot. I'll leave you to do the cost / benefit analysis!

In my case my headphones are a huge amount better than the tiny speakers on my computer for hearing this stuff through. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Al Krow

[mcnach]

10 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Agreed.

Maybe not so counterintuitive once you've had a listen to the low note fundamentals (which I thought I'd better do, following the discussion above!)  

Low B string - fundamental

Low E string - fundamental

Low B string - first harmonic (i.e. one octave up from the low B)

Low E string - first harmonic (i.e. one octave up = low E string on a 6 string guitar)

(Recommend you use a decent pair of headphones).

 

Of course it's not counterintuitive once you know that   

But I really didn't know that a few years ago. My first bass rig was not a problem to choose: I just needed some amplification, any, and I needed it fast and it had to be cheap  So I took whatever I found (Behringer BX4500 head and matching 210 - the head was surprisingly good, actually... not bad for £100 all included even if I had to drive 60 miles to get it). But later I'd spend a lot of time comparing specs, frequency ranges... I was very worried about losing 'bassiness' with some of the cabs I saw out there. Then someone pointed out to the graphs and I could see that even when stating a low 40Hz, it could be several db lower than at 80Hz... 

Then I just played the things and they all worked.

Much later, I learnt why.

Similarly on the top range... I passed on cabs with roll offs at around 4-6 KHz thinking they'd be too dark and went for extended ones, with multiple drivers and/or tweeters. And eventually found they were not needed at all (for me, and I don't use a particularly dark sound).

[Al Krow]

24 minutes ago, mcnach said:

Similarly on the top range... I passed on cabs with roll offs at around 4-6 KHz thinking they'd be too dark and went for extended ones, with multiple drivers and/or tweeters. And eventually found they were not needed at all (for me, and I don't use a particularly dark sound).

So I'm with you at the bottom (sub 60 Hz) range. 

But not there at the top end in my thinking (yet!). Doing the same sine wave tests at 5kHz and 10kHz, my hearing is pretty good still (in my case up to 13K) and there will be a lot of overtones in that range - what I refer to as 'zing' - that, for me, makes a difference which I can clearly hear in a cab that rolls off the high end eg a Markbass 112 or a BF SC (and I suspect similarly the BF 210 / BF ST) and those that don't eg the VK 210s, the BF BB2 and, from what others have said the BF SM. 

Now, obviously, there are plenty of folk who prefer the more vintage tones of cabs that roll off the high end. For me, I would prefer the option of having the high end when I want it and dialling it out via bass / pedal / amp EQ when I don't. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Al Krow

[chris_b]

5 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

Again - how decent? How low do they go? 

 

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

In my case my headphones are a huge amount better than the tiny speakers on my computer for hearing this stuff through. 

+1

All headphones will give a better reproduction of music than any internal computer speakers can. Just buy the first ones you see. I'm using some Sony headphones (down at the cheaper end of the market) and they give a good coverage of all frequencies, including 5 string bass lines and bass drums.

[mcnach]

On 19/03/2019 at 09:57, Al Krow said:

So I'm with you at the bottom (sub 60 Hz) range. 

But not there at the top end in my thinking (yet!). Doing the same sine wave tests at 5kHz and 10kHz, my hearing is pretty good still (in my case up to 13K) and there will be a lot of overtones in that range - what I refer to as 'zing' - that, for me, makes a difference which I can clearly hear in a cab that rolls off the high end eg a Markbass 112 or a BF SC (and I suspect similarly the BF 210 / BF ST) and those that don't eg the VK 210s, the BF BB2 and, from what others have said the BF SM. 

Now, obviously, there are plenty of folk who prefer the more vintage tones of cabs that roll off the high end. For me, I would prefer the option of having the high end when I want it and dialling it out via bass / pedal / amp EQ when I don't. 

 

That's the thing, I had not stopped to look at the sound I liked and I assumed it would contain a lot of higher frequencies. It turns out it doesn't (my hearing is pretty damn good still  ) . 

The Two10 doesn't start to roll off significantly until 6 KHz, and the TKS S112 at 5KHz... and they're as bright as I want them to be. And no, I don't go for muddy old school sound. But whenever I had an adjustable tweeter I ended up turning it down. The sizzle that tweeters produce is not very nice, for me. Multiple driver cabs like the TKS 1126 work better (again, for me) in the top end, with the smaller conventional driver (6" one in that cab) taking care of the treble. That one can go a lot higher without a tweeter... I just looked, it goes to 9KHz. To me that's more than plenty. I had two, one with and one without tweeter... The tweeter was a bad idea. For me   

Some bass preamps have the treble control centered at 10KHz and I find them completely useless except to turn them down. The frequency range it boosts is something I really don't want on my bass. 

This is as bright as I need:

 

 

[Al Krow]

@mcnach, that's an iconic track! But do you think the top end of that bass line has been rolled off? Doesn't sound like it to me. 

Yup agreed 9kHz to 10kHz should be fine, but we typically seem to be offered 5kHz or 16 kHz+.

PS also with you in favouring a small speaker or horn over a tweeter - tweeter hiss can be annoying for sure! 

So what cab did you finally settle on? 

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Al Krow

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On 18/03/2019 at 19:03, Al Krow said:

Agreed.

Maybe not so counterintuitive once you've had a listen to the low note fundamentals (which I thought I'd better do, following the discussion above!)  

Low B string - fundamental

Low E string - fundamental

Low B string - first harmonic (i.e. one octave up from the low B)

Low E string - first harmonic (i.e. one octave up = low E string on a 6 string guitar)

(Recommend you use a decent pair of headphones).

You can't hear what isn't there. Aside from the limitations of the speakers the instrument itself doesn't put out that much in the fundamentals, any fundamentals, below 60Hz or so. If you want to have reasonably flat output to 30Hz your scale is going to have to be a tad longer, about six feet longer to be precise. As to the 40 versus 45Hz response debate, where are those figures from? If they're not taken from a measured SPL chart they're just so much piffle anyway.

[mcnach]

On 20/03/2019 at 19:26, Al Krow said:

@mcnach, that's an iconic track! But do you think the top end of that bass line has been rolled off? Doesn't sound like it to me. 

Yup agreed 9kHz to 10kHz should be fine, but we typically seem to be offered 5kHz or 16 kHz+.

PS also with you in favouring a small speaker or horn over a tweeter - tweeter hiss can be annoying for sure! 

So what cab did you finally settle on? 

 

 

A pair of Barefaced Two10.

I still keep the TKS S112 (pair) because they're very sweet sounding, but I often need more oomph than I'm comfortable putting through them, so the Two10 see most of the action.

As for the top end rolled off on that track... Try playing that on the Two10 (6 or 7 KHz top I think) and tell me if you feel  it's missing anything important. That was my point (and I can hear very well up to 15 KHz  ). "Bright" is a lot lower than a lot of people think, because they haven't really tested it seriously. It was certainly the case for me.

Even the TKS S112 don't really feel 'dark' to me and they roll of at 5 KHz. Most of the interesting mids and treble are very well represented in that range, the stuff they cannot reproduce is stuff that I would usually try to remove anyway.

[xgsjx]

I love how this thread has gone from Al Krow asking a typical noob question about Ω, to debating fundamental frequencies.  All in less than 5 months!

Isn't it great what BC & it's members can teach one another.