Learning scales/modes/theory - The daunting prospect

[Guest MoJo]

Playing covers in a 'pub rock' trio, I don't really need to know a lot of theory or a lot of knowledge of scales and modes. I just replicate, as best as I can, the original bass line and Robert's your Dad's Brother. My love of the instrument however, leads me, at regular intervals, down the path to improving my knowledge of the scales / modes and the theory connecting them to the relative chords. There are a few educational YouTube channels that I subscribe to, Scott Devine being one and Luke at 'Becoming a Bassist' more recently. The problem I find is that, although I can easily follow the lessons and exercises, when the tutor says something along the lines of 

"Once you've got this under your belt, if you want to play it in D minor, all you have to do is transpose the patterns up two frets."

Immediately, I think, 'So I've got to memorise all these modes in all 12 Major and 12 Minor keys?' The fret board blurs and I feel as though I'm standing at the foot of Mount Everest looking towards the summit and it's hidden in the clouds. At 56 years of age, I often have difficulty remembering the name of an actress in a drama I watched the previous evening, so the chances of me remembering all the positions of the Eb minor pentatonic scale and play them at will, all over the fretboard, are similar to my chances of winning the Euro Millions this week. 

Has anyone else found themselves in this situation? If so, what did you do? 

[EliasMooseblaster]

3 minutes ago, MoJo said:

Immediately, I think, 'So I've got to memorise all these modes in all 12 Major and 12 Minor keys?'

...

Has anyone else found themselves in this situation? If so, what did you do? 

Give thanks to any nearby deities that you have chosen an instrument with strings, as opposed to keys, reeds or brass tubes.

Joking aside, one of the beauties of a stringed instrument like the (bass) guitar is that most songs can be shifted up or down a key by moving your hand up or down the neck a few frets. It's a shortcut, but you can go a surprisingly long way with it in some genres.

But it does also help if you want to take the time to learn your scales: every type of scale, ultimately, has a "shape" on the neck which you can move up or down to move it into a different key. The key will change, but the shape won't, because the intervals between the notes are the same. So you can take it one step at a time - learn some of these shapes where the scale begins on the E-string, get used to moving those around, and then incorporate some of the other positions when you're more confident. Familiarity, unfortunately, will only come with practise!

[paul_c2]

Part of "being good" (IMHO) is being able to quickly/smoothly see and understand the relationship between 'shapes' on the neck, intervals and actual note names. Its possible to get by in certain situations without 'getting' the relationship at all - for example if you're playing a riff-based song over a 145 progression, then simply shifting around and playing the riff will work, even if you don't know the notes. (You'll probably at least indirectly be knowing the relevant intervals though).

In a way, modes are all about the subtle differences in the "shape" of a scale, for example a mixolydian scale is a slightly different shape to the ionian scale; and that translates to the intervals you are playing. In my simple example, the interval between the 6th and 7th of the scale will be 1 fret/1 semitone; and the interval between the 7th and the octave will be 2 frets up (or 3 down on the next string) because its a whole tone interval. And if you know your notes, you'll also know the scale (for example let's say you played G major (ionian), then G mixolydian) went from having one sharp, to no sharps. (And by extension, any mixolydian scale has one less sharp/one more flat, than the major scale of the same note). But you don't need to know the complexities of the notes. But if you're reading music, or sight reading, then knowing/recognising this when you see it and being able to equate it to the change of "shape" is really handy and useful.

You are what you practice - if you are in situations where you're using modes all the time, and/or reading music all the time, then these aspects will naturally be absorbed and be recalled, gradually. If you're not in a situation where you need to do it and are simply approaching it as an unrelated (to your playing) theoretical exercise, it is potentially confusing and I'm not surprised its daunting.

If that's the case, then I'd ask the question "why do you want/need to learn this?" and if its daunting then do a more progressive approach than simply trying to take on ALL modes in ALL keys as a theoretical exercise.

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, MoJo said:

..."Once you've got this under your belt, if you want to play it in D minor, all you have to do is transpose the patterns up two frets."

Immediately, I think, 'So I've got to memorise all these modes in all 12 Major and 12 Minor keys?' ...

The immediate answer to the question above is 'No, you haven't.' However, once you've understood the lesson, and are happy playing it  with confidence, yes, you can move up a couple of frets and play the same stuff in another key. No sweat, eh..? Once you're happy with playing 'em both, choose another key (not necessarily two frets up, but it could be...), rinse and repeat. You'll then have three of 'em nailed. Not bad, eh..? It might take a few days, or a few weeks; that depends. However, in doing that (and knowing which key is which...), it'll probably 'click' ('light-bulb' moment...) that you can in fact, do the same anywhere on the neck, and you'll already know what's happening. No need to 'study' each one in isolation, just one or two and the others will sort themselves out. Don't look to the summit of that mountain, just to the next low ridge to cross. Before you know it, you'll be at the summit. Bravo..!

[Guest MoJo]

8 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

The immediate answer to the question above is 'No, you haven't.' However, once you've understood the lesson, and are happy playing it  with confidence, yes, you can move up a couple of frets and play the same stuff in another key. No sweat, eh..? Once you're happy with playing 'em both, choose another key (not necessarily two frets up, but it could be...), rinse and repeat. You'll then have three of 'em nailed. Not bad, eh..? It might take a few days, or a few weeks; that depends. However, in doing that (and knowing which key is which...), it'll probably 'click' ('light-bulb' moment...) that you can in fact, do the same anywhere on the neck, and you'll already know what's happening. No need to 'study' each one in isolation, just one or two and the others will sort themselves out. Don't look to the summit of that mountain, just to the next low ridge to cross. Before you know it, you'll be at the summit. Bravo..!

This seems like a less daunting prospect. I watched a Scott Devine lesson on Youtube a couple of days ago where he claims, in his opinion that the Major scale is probably one of the most important scales to learn as all the major modes are contained within the major scale. I'm going to give learning the C Major scale, all over the fretboard a go and see how I progress. Hopefully things will become clearer, the further along the path I go

[Dad3353]

[Coilte]

If you intend to continue as you are...i.e. playing in a pub rock trio, then IMO you won't have much use for modes. I suggest that instead, you concentrate on CHORD TONES. These are what most bassists play 90% of the time...not modes. 😉

The link below is an excellent site for learning some basic theory. Go to the study guide and start where you think is appropriate for you.  In the link, the site emphases the importance of chord tones.

https://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/

Edited October 31, 2018 by Coilte

[Dad3353]

I read this from the Original Post ...

'...My love of the instrument however, leads me, at regular intervals, down the path to improving my knowledge of the scales / modes and the theory connecting them to the relative chords...'

Seems fine to me to have a look at any and all things that interest the fellow, no..? Not saying that chord tones etc are not important, nor worthy of study, but there's a whole world just over the horizon, just waiting for the curious. None of it is a waste of time, if one's motivated and keen.
Just my view on things, of course. 

[Coilte]

27 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Seems fine to me to have a look at any and all things that interest the fellow, no.. 

Agree 100%,  but I think there is plenty in chord tones to occupy his interest for some time to come. Later on, when he has a good grasp of basic theory....then by all means he can delve into modes if he so wishes. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk. 😉

Edited October 31, 2018 by Coilte

[Nicko]

1 hour ago, Coilte said:

Agree 100%,  but I think there is plenty in chord tones to occupy his interest for some time to come. Later on, when he has a good grasp of basic theory....then by all means he can delve into modes if he so wishes. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk. 😉

I'm not quite sure how you separate the two.  Chord tones in any key are made up from the notes in the scale, hence if you know your scale you know your chord tones.  Modal stuff becomes easier once you have accepted this so you work the C maj chord tones and immediately you know D Dorian tones, E Phrygian tones and so on.   Its only a mattter of resolution, knowing what chords to leave out and what extensions sound better. 

You wont have much need for knowledge of modes in a pub covers band but its always worth knowing what you are playing and why it works.  Perhaps you can start by looking at some modal rock music and see how you get on,  I'd start with something like City of Delusion by Muse.