Bass VI. Removing poles from pickups?

[randythoades]

Feel free to jump in and tell me this is a bonkers idea, it was just one of those moments that I thought... 'I wonder if I could'....

I have a Bass VI clone that I have really started to enjoy playing as my main bass, but now want to start exploring the possibilities tonally. I currently just use it as a standard bass with extra room to twiddle if I need it but have started a new (very casual) project with the idea of just drums and bass doing some old time country and folk - a bit like Royal Blood etc but without the distortion and attempting to do a sort of hybrid picking  to play both simple Root / 5 bass lines and guitar chords simultaneously - picking the root note of the chord I am playing and playing the higher strings with fingers. I have started playing around using an ABY pedal to feed a guitar amp as well as a bass amp and I have found a couple of sonic issues...

If I play chords or multiple strings they sound fine on the guitar amp if I use the higher strings, but really muddy on bass amp and obscures the nice rich bass note.

How can I isolate the output so that a chord doesn't come completely through the bass amp but the bass note still does? I have tried removing the appropriate frequencies on the EQ on each amp but doesn't quite do what I want to hear.

So, my idea is this: Can I remove 3 poles from the neck pickup and 3 from the bridge pickup and route each pickup to feed each appropriate amp? I could blend them or use middle pickup alone if i wanted to use as a fulll range bass alone. Does this sound feasible? Or is there a pedal anyone knows of (or pedal collection) that I could set to do a similar job? Or is it purely a technique I need to really master?

 

[mybass]

I don't know this particular bass guitar but it has two pickups so why not wire a separate output jack for each pickup. At first try soldering the wires of one pickup to its own output jack and leave it hanging off the bass, leaving the other pickup to the existing output jack. If it works to your liking you could then get it screwed/fitted onto the bass properly. 

Take one pickup output to the guitar amp (maybe the bridge pickup for less 'bass' end helping higher frequencies) and one to the bass amp (neck pickup for a little more natural bass end).

You may just permanently damage a pickup by removing a single or more poles.

[randythoades]

Thanks for the respose mybass. It is a cheap Revelation RJT60-B which is a 3 pickup jazzmaster style bass with nice but generic soapbar pickups.

Yes, my idea is to definitely run pickups separately to each amp from their own jack (or a single stereo jack) but I wanted see if there was a way to take (or dramatically) reduce the higher string sound from going to the bass amp and vice versa to the guitar amp,  a bit like a hard limiter, hence the thought of removing poles or maybe covering them to render them less effective?

I don't mind ruining the pickups if it came to it as they are a cheapish replacement and I would change the Entwhistle ones for Duncans or Bare Knuckle or similar (but there is no actaul need as it stands so if there is a non destroying option then I would be very happy!!).

[randythoades]

Although i really like your idea of wiring one of the pickups straight to an output jack and let it dangle off the bass!

A very easy thing to attempt and try out feasibility.

Edited November 1, 2018 by randythoades

[ikay]

Removing the pole pieces would do the job, but whether you can do it without damaging the pickup depends on the construction of the bobbin. If it's a cheap one-piece plastic bobbin there's a good chance that the poles are inserted into a plastic 'hole' and, with a little encouragement, can be moved up or down (or removed completely). The video below demonstrates how to do this with a Strat pickup. At 7min 10sec he pulls one of the poles completely out. If the pickup has a more traditional construction (ie. separate top/bottom flatwork with the poles forming part of the structure) then messing with the poles will almost certainly damage the pickup. Interesting idea BTW!

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by ikay

[randythoades]

Brilliant, thanks for this, ikay very informative actually!

On further inspection though I have realised the immense flaw in my plan... My soapbar pickups are P90s and have bar magnets running through the pickup so no poles to remove!!

I have some strat pickups in my parts box so i may attempt a similar thing with 3 strat pickups and do a temporary wire up test and if it works I will do a new pickguard. Standard Bass VI uses Jaguar pickups as far as I know so should be quite similar in soound to that. Also had another thought that I could change my bottom 3 strings to flatwounds and leave the top 3 as rounds to give more of a difference in tones.

Thanks guys, at least I know it is not super crazy and will have a look at trying it with a strat pickup set.

[MoonBassAlpha]

You could tilt the pickups at a jaunty angle to bias them towards the strings you want. The middle 2 strings may get quieter as a result, but it's got to be the easiest and cheapest thing to try. Maybe then you could use the pole pieces to compensate volume inequality.

[randythoades]

Thanks MoonBassAlpha, I have tried that and it what I am currently using. It does definitely work to give bias to the strings I want and i would contunie on that basis if I can't find an otherwise suitable solution (if you do the EQ as much as you can to scoop the bass or cut the treble down) but I want to try and isolate them completely. What I need is effectively a Precision pickup but with each coil having its own live output.

I think trying it on my existing and currently redundant strat pickups will be my first port of call.

[MoonBassAlpha]

Those pickups that the Fender 12 string Hockey stick thing sound ideal

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scottymoore.net%2Fimages%2Feguitars%2Fmovieguitars%2FXII%2F1966ElectricXII12stringLakePlacidBlue.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scottymoore.net%2Fepm_propXII.html&docid=MbbjbQTiYGu3UM&tbnid=TddNCslPaLegJM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjXlLCRq7PeAhWlJcAKHRgYDlYQMwh4KA0wDQ..i&w=450&h=640&bih=858&biw=1161&q=fender 12 string electric&ved=0ahUKEwjXlLCRq7PeAhWlJcAKHRgYDlYQMwh4KA0wDQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

 

[randythoades]

They look the part, but would each coil be able to be wired to it's own output jack? Look very similar to older Mustang bass pickup.

[ikay]

10 minutes ago, randythoades said:

What I need is effectively a Precision pickup but with each coil having its own live output.

Both parts of a P pickup will function as separate pickups so you could actually do that. Same for a split Mustang pickup, which may be better for narrower string spacing.

[randythoades]

Will they? How would that work? Would I just cut the wire that joins them to use as the hot wire from the uppermost coil and add a ground wire from the baseplate? That might solve part of my issue. I could make a small blanking plate to fit over one of the soapbar apertures no problem

[adamg67]

I've had the effect you're after with my SRC6, which is basically a Bass VI (but with much better pickups IMO), but  I did it the Royal Blood way, by splitting the signal based on frequency. You can do it with a crossover, or just a splitter followed by two EQs - that's slightly more flexible as you can overlap them. You can fairly convincingly get a bass sound for the bass end and guitar sound for the top end.

Edited November 1, 2018 by adamg67

[randythoades]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for this. I looked at the Ibanez actually but prefer the more vintage look to play country and 50s/60s material. I have no experience with corssovers so don't really know how they work or what they actually are. What would I need? If I can set it so that notes above a certain pitch go one way, and noted below go the otherway that that would be perfect and require no guitar modification.

[ikay]

16 minutes ago, randythoades said:

How would that work?

Yes, just cut the wire that joins them and each half should then have two wires which are the hot/cold for each coil. Each half is a single coil pickup. You might get some single coil hum. If you do, try swapping the polarity of the wiring on one half.

Edited November 1, 2018 by ikay

[adamg67]

2 minutes ago, randythoades said:

Thanks for this. I looked at the Ibanez actually but prefer the more vintage look to play country and 50s/60s material. I have no experience with corssovers so don't really know how they work or what they actually are. What would I need? If I can set it so that notes above a certain pitch go one way, and noted below go the otherway that that would be perfect and require no guitar modification.

Yep, that's the idea. Crossover is probably a bad idea if you're doing it with pedals (I use one to do it in software just because it's there), but you can use an ABY pedal, eg: https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/signal-splitter-router/fender-2-switch-aby-pedal-passive-switch - that's passive but it says it does one guitar into two amps. On top of that you'd need to be able to EQ each seperate signal, so you can pull out the bass signal on one side and the treble signal on the other.

[randythoades]

Hi Adam

I understand. That is pretty much what I do at the moment. A radial ABY pedal spilt into 2, but even with dramatic EQ (a Boss Bass EQ on one and the regular Boss EQ for the other), I still get the sound of the higher strings going through the bass amp and vice versa, and sounds muddy on the bass amp. Reducing the bass on the guitar amp side is much more successful compared to reducing the chord sounds into the bass amp.

I achieved it the other way to some degree by using a guitar to do faux bass lines bthrough the Boss OC3 octave as that has some sort of hard threshold frequency control that only lets notes below a certain pitch to go through the octave into the bass amp. But I am attempting to be playing basslines plus a little flourish for the most part so would prefer to use the bass if I can work it out.

[randythoades]

24 minutes ago, ikay said:

Yes, just cut the wire that joins them and each half should then have two wires which are the hot/cold for each coil. Each half is a single coil pickup. You might get some single coil hum. If you do, try swapping the polarity of the wiring on one half.

Excellent, thanks ikay. I have an unused pBass pickup so will try that...

Edited November 1, 2018 by randythoades

[Funkfingers]

2 hours ago, randythoades said:

Revelation RJT60-B ... generic soapbar pickups

That is "soapbar" as in Gibson P90 rather than the sense in which the term usually applies to bass guitar pickups.

The polepieces of these pickups are filister head screws. They thread through a plastic tubular section in the bobbin and, then, through the metal baseplate of the pickup (if present).

Removing three of the screws from such a pickup may defocus its magnetic field above that half of the pickup but it will not stop it altogether. For that, it would be necessary to use shorter bar magnets below the bobbin. Even this will not create perfect separation between the wanted and unwanted signals from the strings.

 

 

3 hours ago, randythoades said:

ABY pedal to feed a guitar amp as well as a bass amp.

What amplifiers are you using? Which ABY box? How good, bad or indifferent are the cables carrying your signals? 

Does the RJT-60B sound muddy when you play chords through just the bass amp? This could possibly be the fault of the amplifier rather than the instrument.

Finally, what resistance value and taper pots does the RJT-60B use? 500k Ohm pots would be normal with the P90 type pickups. 250k pots will suck away a lot of the high frequency content - especially if the pots are cheap 'n' nasty.

[adamg67]

1 hour ago, randythoades said:

I understand. That is pretty much what I do at the moment. A radial ABY pedal spilt into 2, but even with dramatic EQ (a Boss Bass EQ on one and the regular Boss EQ for the other), I still get the sound of the higher strings going through the bass amp and vice versa, and sounds muddy on the bass amp. Reducing the bass on the guitar amp side is much more successful compared to reducing the chord sounds into the bass amp.

Ah, cool, I didn't realise you'd already tried EQing both sides. The physical approach with the pickup would give a much more definite split. 

[randythoades]

1 hour ago, Funkfingers said:

That is "soapbar" as in Gibson P90 rather than the sense in which the term usually applies to bass guitar pickups.

The polepieces of these pickups are filister head screws. They thread through a plastic tubular section in the bobbin and, then, through the metal baseplate of the pickup (if present).

Removing three of the screws from such a pickup may defocus its magnetic field above that half of the pickup but it will not stop it altogether. For that, it would be necessary to use shorter bar magnets below the bobbin. Even this will not create perfect separation between the wanted and unwanted signals from the strings.

 

 

What amplifiers are you using? Which ABY box? How good, bad or indifferent are the cables carrying your signals? 

Does the RJT-60B sound muddy when you play chords through just the bass amp? This could possibly be the fault of the amplifier rather than the instrument.

Finally, what resistance value and taper pots does the RJT-60B use? 500k Ohm pots would be normal with the P90 type pickups. 250k pots will suck away a lot of the high frequency content - especially if the pots are cheap 'n' nasty.

Yes, Funkfingers, my mistake in original post. Soapbar as in Gibson P90 rather than Ibanez or Norstrand type thing. I replaced the electronics with Seymour Duncan SDP-500 500K Pots, switchcraft socket and Oak Grigsby switch, removing the Varitone circuit out of the system entirely. Using Radial Big Shot ABY and goes into a Fender Superchamp guitar amp on blackface settings and Phil Jones head and matching cab. Just playing full chords is muddy on it's own even without splitting the signal when just playing through the bass amp or if I just DI straight to the board. Being a bass rather than a baritone guitar, chords are really only possible using the upper reaches or higher strings, exactly as you would find trying to play chords on regular Precision. No effects on anything. Cables are Whirlwind Leader series.

What I am trying to do is play a clear single bass note through my PJB amp but emphasise the clean guitar melody with the higher strings through the Fender guitar amp. It works, don't get me wrong, but I have just been thinking that there must be a way to clean it up and there is no need for the higher notes to be present in the bass amp, and no need to overload the guitar amp with high volume bass notes that the speaker can't cope with.

Edited November 1, 2018 by randythoades

[Norris]

A couple of these?

https://www.blackdogmusic.co.uk/product/three-string-3-pole-cigar-box-guitar-pickup/

They seem fairly cheap to have a play with.

Alternatively you could try to find a custom pickup maker to do a dual-coil treble/bass split pickup to fit a P90 route - which would probably be a more costly route. @Andyjr1515 had some individual coils made a while ago for a bass build. I'm sure a 3+3 split can't be impossible to make

[AndyTravis]

Look at the italia imola.

this sort of did what you wanted - but some smart wiring would separate the bass and treble sides.

[Andyjr1515]

35 minutes ago, Norris said:

A couple of these?

https://www.blackdogmusic.co.uk/product/three-string-3-pole-cigar-box-guitar-pickup/

They seem fairly cheap to have a play with.

Alternatively you could try to find a custom pickup maker to do a dual-coil treble/bass split pickup to fit a P90 route - which would probably be a more costly route. @Andyjr1515 had some individual coils made a while ago for a bass build. I'm sure a 3+3 split can't be impossible to make

@TheGreek 's Psilos bass had custom coils made by Martin Herrick that Mick arranged.  There are some installation shots on the front page of their website https://www.herrickpickups.com/

I seem to remember they weren't much more expensive than standard pickups and work absolutely great.  Certainly worth dropping Martin a mail....

[randythoades]

Thanks all,

As it happens, I just happened to find an email from a custom pickup maker that I have used in the past (anyone believe in fate?) so asked the question. The 3 x 3 configuration no problem, and no problem to put it within the p90 cover as a staggered set up (so no modification needed there). Only would be £75  done and delivered.

I am going to try the suggustion of doing it as a temporary trial with an old precision pickup and if it does what I want I will order a custom one and save myself some grief trying to fashion a new pickguard etc.

Much obliged for your input.