Painy Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) A luthier friend of mine has asked me to collaborate with him to design a bass but based on the styling and design principles of his existing guitars. His builds exclusively use UK grown woods and aim to be as organic as possible both in construction and tone so, for example, the pickup is direct wired to the output and everything (bar the frets, electronics, tuners and straplocks) is handmade by him. I'd appreciate your thoughts on how these guitars might translate into bass form (or indeed any suggestions as to what might need to be changed to make it work). Link to the photo gallery on his website here:- https://www.halflightguitars.com/ Thanks. Edited November 2, 2018 by Painy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Some nice features....I like the way the strings go under the "nut".. More detailed info: https://www.halflightguitars.com/new-page-1/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheGreek said: Some nice features....I like the way the strings go under the "nut".. More detailed info: https://www.halflightguitars.com/new-page-1/ Yeah, it's basically a string retainer that holds the strings over the zero-fret but apparently there was an awful lot of work that went into getting the perfect break-angle that gets the minimum amount of pressure possible to avoid wearing the fret but still enough contact to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I would be looking at rob Allen type basses with piezoelectric elements and an acoustic type sound- but obv with his concepts applied 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, LukeFRC said: I would be looking at rob Allen type basses with piezoelectric elements and an acoustic type sound- but obv with his concepts applied The pickup he uses as has an incredibly acoustic-like sound (the clean sound on his guitars is genuinely breathtaking) and because it has a hugely wide frequency range it's suitable for both guitar and bass but without the feedback issues that you can often get with piezo type pickups. Rob Allen basses are definitely stunning instruments though and certainly worth looking at for some inspiration! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Yup - semi hollow piezo only bass would be the way to go. Check out Scojack's and Jabba the Guts' piezo basses in the Build Diaries forum. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Painy said: The pickup he uses as has an incredibly acoustic-like sound (the clean sound on his guitars is genuinely breathtaking) and because it has a hugely wide frequency range it's suitable for both guitar and bass but without the feedback issues that you can often get with piezo type pickups. Rob Allen basses are definitely stunning instruments though and certainly worth looking at for some inspiration! Q-tuners have a good rep but it’s still a mag pickup - I just think if he takes his ethos and uses piezos he’s making something that fits into his ethos as stated and also fits into a section of the bass buying public in the uk... Your friend would be competing against rob Allen and the other guys who make that kind of bass... (who in the uk) rather than every uk luthier who makes basses... it fits with the guys ethos, it would be a different product due to the woods used and I have a suspicion there would be a gap in the market ... otherwise my question would be why would I buy that bass over a Alpher/ACG/Overwater...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyTravis Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 They look cool - very minimalistic and sleek 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, LukeFRC said: Q-tuners have a good rep but it’s still a mag pickup - I just think if he takes his ethos and uses piezos he’s making something that fits into his ethos as stated and also fits into a section of the bass buying public in the uk... Your friend would be competing against rob Allen and the other guys who make that kind of bass... (who in the uk) rather than every uk luthier who makes basses... it fits with the guys ethos, it would be a different product due to the woods used and I have a suspicion there would be a gap in the market ... otherwise my question would be why would I buy that bass over a Alpher/ACG/Overwater...? Fair point. How about including both a piezo and a Q-tuner with the option to switch (or possibly even blend) between the 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_lefty Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 I can't comment on build technique but they look simply lovely. I like the jack input hidden at the back too. No clutter, just great woods nicely shaped. Given unlimited funds to buy whatever basses I want I'd have one of these. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyTravis Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 This sort of traditional outline (with a twist) would work well with that aesthetic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete.young Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 There are a couple of things that I think you might need to look at. The first is the bridge. Intonation and string height are matched to the instrument at the construction stage, so once you've made your initial choice of string, that's it? I don't like the idea of not being able to adjust the action or the intonation. Even with the same brand and gauge of string, you sometimes need to make minor adjustments.The other reason for the design, to allow the strings to 'interact' as much as possible through the shared saddle, is something that I don't believe is going to be desirable for bass either. The other thing I'd be looking at is the neck profile. It looks like a box with rounded-off corners. Will that work for bass? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 I think that the guitars look incredible and a bass version would be most welcome. I'd buy one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted November 3, 2018 Author Share Posted November 3, 2018 21 minutes ago, pete.young said: There are a couple of things that I think you might need to look at. The first is the bridge. Intonation and string height are matched to the instrument at the construction stage, so once you've made your initial choice of string, that's it? I don't like the idea of not being able to adjust the action or the intonation. Even with the same brand and gauge of string, you sometimes need to make minor adjustments.The other reason for the design, to allow the strings to 'interact' as much as possible through the shared saddle, is something that I don't believe is going to be desirable for bass either. The other thing I'd be looking at is the neck profile. It looks like a box with rounded-off corners. Will that work for bass? Some good points there. The lower frequencies of a bass don't interact so well as those on a guitar so individual sadles would certainly seem to make more sense. If that's the case then a non proprietary bridge might be an easier option to also allow for adjustment. If it's a bridge with through body stringing then it would also still maintain the direct transference of vibrations to the body that these wooden guitar bridges are looking to achieve. The neck profile is surprisingly comfortable on these guitars but I'm of a similar mind that it's possibly not as well suited for bass. I do personally like a fairly shallow front to back profile but I'm actually thinking an asymmetric profile could be quite nice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete.young Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 29 minutes ago, Painy said: The neck profile is surprisingly comfortable on these guitars but I'm of a similar mind that it's possibly not as well suited for bass. I do personally like a fairly shallow front to back profile but I'm actually thinking an asymmetric profile could be quite nice. I think that's a great idea. Probably the most comfortable bass neck I've owned was the MTD Kingston, which is asymmetric - and that had a huge wide fingerboard but it still felt very effortless to play and just seemed to be right. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikay Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 (edited) To realise the full woody organic magnificence of such a beautiful instrument in bass form, for me it would have to be fretless. Crafted wooden bridges with little or no adjustment work well in a fretless context. The bridge on my RA Mouse has zero adjustability and is tightly bonded into a recessed pocket in the body. The intonation is surprisingly true and the transference of string vibration has to be felt and heard to be believed. It genuinely feels alive. Options of piezo or mag (or both) would be good depending on what it's going to be used for. A piezo bridge gives a full range woody tone, and a mag pickup somewhere near the Stingray sweetspot gives that classic fretless singing tone. I have that configuration on my ACG and blending between the two changes the character and mood of the bass in a very effective and organic way. I think a bass version of the Naiad could be something quite special. I want one already. Edited November 3, 2018 by ikay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 Wow! That's some of the most beautiful and skilled lutherie I've seen for a while. A Rob Allen style bass (fretless, no lines!) made in the same style would be amazing. P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 On 03/11/2018 at 10:36, pete.young said: The other thing I'd be looking at is the neck profile. It looks like a box with rounded-off corners. Will that work for bass? My old fretless Status Electro (that I actually rather miss) had a similarly flat neck profile. I really liked it. P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 I would imagine that the guitar designs went through a number of prototypes with varying success until he settled on those design features. The bass model(s) will need to do the same. I wouldn't expect him to get everything right first go. The most important thing to remember is that despite outward appearances a bass guitar is not simply a normal guitar scaled up. Things that work well on a guitar are not always desirable on a bass and vice-versa. Plenty of experimentation is going to be required before he come up with a suitable bass guitar design. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted November 6, 2018 Author Share Posted November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, BigRedX said: I would imagine that the guitar designs went through a number of prototypes with varying success until he settled on those design features. The bass model(s) will need to do the same. I wouldn't expect him to get everything right first go. The most important thing to remember is that despite outward appearances a bass guitar is not simply a normal guitar scaled up. Things that work well on a guitar are not always desirable on a bass and vice-versa. Plenty of experimentation is going to be required before he come up with a suitable bass guitar design. Absolutely, hence he's asked me for some input as he's very aware that it's not as simple as sticking a longer neck onto the same body and as a guitarist himself rather than a bass player he was interested to know what the main differences were likely to be from a bass player's view point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edstraker123 Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 On 03/11/2018 at 10:22, AndyTravis said: This sort of traditional outline (with a twist) would work well with that aesthetic... That's a lovely Lodestone ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 On 03/11/2018 at 11:30, pete.young said: Probably the most comfortable bass neck I've owned was the MTD Kingston, which is asymmetric - and that had a huge wide fingerboard but it still felt very effortless to play and just seemed to be right. Snap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 I have now looked at the pictures. They are yummy. Ergonomics are go! Clearly a bloke who respects wood. An on/off switch would be one thing I would want somewhere. I could live without other things, but not that. I will be VERY interested to see how they develop. Scale lengths are something for him to think about. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 minute ago, owen said: I have now looked at the pictures. They are yummy. Ergonomics are go! Clearly a bloke who respects wood. An on/off switch would be one thing I would want somewhere. I could live without other things, but not that. I will be VERY interested to see how they develop. Scale lengths are something for him to think about. A kill switch is something we've already spoken about actually and he already considered for his guitars and can offer as an option on custom orders so would be easy enough to specify on a bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Ooh lots of yummy wood. Lovely minimalist approach, and a real respect for the materials. I will watch this with interest. On 03/11/2018 at 10:22, AndyTravis said: This sort of traditional outline (with a twist) would work well with that aesthetic... But not the headstock... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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