Tackling Double Bass Feedback

[N64Lover]

Ello, im having troubles with feedback at gigs. I play in a jazz trio but the drummer is quite loud, and I have to stand quite close to my amp. The problem is the higher I get up the neck, the more I get a resonant sounding trail off the end of my notes. Its almost like having a slapback delay on there, and its making it very hard to hear the notes and play perfectly in tune.

Coming from a history of playing electric bass ive never really had to deal with this, so im a bit stumped as to what to do. I play a carved bass with a realist pickup through an EA iamp 350 combo, which I put on a chair. Are there any ways of tackling it? EQ? Standing further away from the amp?

[jakenewmanbass]

Firstly due to less rresonance Laminate basses are much easier to amplify but if you don't have one that doesn't help I know.
Basically the amp is 'playing' through the mic in the pickup and into the amp and into the pickup and....... etc and thats feedback. So distance would help, as the wave decays the further it travels from the source (your EA)
You are encountereing an age old problem for amplifying uprights, and in these days of loud drums etc you can feel as though you are fighting a losing battle, and IMO you are. the best resolution is lower volume, have a greater dynamic range available to you, tell the drummer to play to the acoustic nature of the band. Billy Higgins (jazz drummer with everyone in his time) said.
"you're not supposed to rape the drums, you need to make love to them, all the best horn players listen hard to the bass so as a drummer you're not supposed to drown the bass out" That in the days where basses weren't amplified at all.
If you take that quote seriously, and I do, you open the door to better music that is multi dimensional due to the increased variety of available dynamics, always loud is sh*t and some drummers are terrible for having an ego so big that they can't keep quiet enough to take the music out of a boring one dimensional space.
Of course there are drummers who play just right dynamically, If you're guy won't change, get one that will.

[Beer of the Bass]

If, for whatever reason, the loud drums are something you have to live with, I've had some success by dampening the afterlength of the strings (between bridge and tailpiece) to reduce feedback. If the amp is already off the floor, that's a good start, and there are also a couple of things you can do with EQ - make sure you're not boosting low end, and if the EQ of your amp allows, taking the very low frequencies (below 40hz) down a bit can reduce the boom.
I played a loud gig on Friday, with heavily amplified drums, and ended up having to use the notch filter on my amp (an Acoustic Image Clarus/ EA wizzy 10 cab) to get rid of the boominess and feedback around one note.
Sadly, all of this takes you further from your acoustic sound, but it can get you through the gig if all else fails.
Some people reckon that the Realist isn't the best option for higher volumes - I haven't used one myself, so can't really comment on that.

[Lemuel Beam]

[quote name='N64Lover' post='341925' date='Dec 1 2008, 02:17 PM']Ello, im having troubles with feedback at gigs. I play in a jazz trio but the drummer is quite loud, and I have to stand quite close to my amp. The problem is the higher I get up the neck, the more I get a resonant sounding trail off the end of my notes. Its almost like having a slapback delay on there, and its making it very hard to hear the notes and play perfectly in tune.

Coming from a history of playing electric bass ive never really had to deal with this, so im a bit stumped as to what to do. I play a carved bass with a realist pickup through an EA iamp 350 combo, which I put on a chair. Are there any ways of tackling it? EQ? Standing further away from the amp?[/quote]

Unless you're looking for a really good "acoustic" sound I would try another pickup - I used an Underwood with a loud band for years and it easily outperforms the Realist for volume, if not tonal quality.

Mick

[N64Lover]

[quote name='Lemuel Beam' post='342169' date='Dec 1 2008, 06:09 PM']Unless you're looking for a really good "acoustic" sound I would try another pickup - I used an Underwood with a loud band for years and it easily outperforms the Realist for volume, if not tonal quality.

Mick[/quote]

Thanks for the replies, ill try out some of these ideas this Sunday. And thanks for the quote jakesbass, ill be sure to email that to the drummer.

Also, does anyone know of any piece of equipment that I can plug into my drummer to measure his ego levels and automatically adjust my gain accordingly?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='N64Lover' post='342355' date='Dec 1 2008, 08:51 PM']And thanks for the quote jakesbass, ill be sure to email that to the drummer.[/quote]
You're welcome

[quote name='N64Lover' post='342355' date='Dec 1 2008, 08:51 PM']Also, does anyone know of any piece of equipment that I can plug into my drummer to measure his ego levels and automatically adjust my gain accordingly?[/quote]

I pissed myself at this
What a great idea.
you could always use a hammer.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='342565' date='Dec 2 2008, 12:26 AM']You're welcome

I pissed myself at this
What a great idea.
you could always use a hammer.[/quote]


You could buy your drummer a pair of cheap hammers for Christmas. Maybe he will take the hint.

[alexclaber]

As an non-double bassist but someone who is interested in the amplification of them, in what frequency ranges does feedback tend to manifest?

Alex

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='351702' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:42 PM']As an non-double bassist but someone who is interested in the amplification of them, in what frequency ranges does feedback tend to manifest?

Alex[/quote]

Alex,

As an owner of a really cheap Chinese import jobbie, I find that in my case, the feedback is caused by the pup picking up resonance in the body of the bass. In my case it is a low/low mid frequency. My amp doesn't have notching so I've never gone so far as to find it, but I think it's around the 150-300Hz mark. As a former soundman, I am ashamed of myself for not being able to hit the mark closer just by hearing it.

I saw a Ben Folds Five DVD where Robert Sledge used an upright (bowed) on one song and had foam stuck in the F-holes. I tried a bodged version with a towel which helped the feedback, but obviously the bass lost all its sustain.

I think part of my problem is that I bought a Bob Golihur K&K pickup set for it (almost more expensive than the bass!) and have never gone through properly and set up the gain structure/EQ in the little preamp box with it. It has a wedged in wing pickup and 4 piezos on the bridge under each string which the preamp then mixes into one ouput.

The problem is I never get to be that loud at home, and time is money for your band when you're at the rehearsal room, so have never had much of a chance to really mess about with it. I'm usually trying to find Superglue to patch up my bleeding fingers anyway!

Edited December 11, 2008 by Huge Hands

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote]As an non-double bassist but someone who is interested in the amplification of them, in what frequency ranges does feedback tend to manifest?

Alex[/quote]

At the last gig where I had feedback troubles, the frequency was close to my lowest C. So that'd be somewhere in the range of sixty-something Hz? The exact frequency varies, but i find it's usually somewhere around there for me.

[Pookus]

I use a Fishman pre-amp which also has two parametric adjustments. I find the offending feedback frequency by boosting on a narrow band width and sweeping the frequency until it hits the sweet spot. Then cut that frequency right back on as narrow band width I can get away with. I play through a GK MB150 with all the tone and EQ as flat as possible. That works best for me.

[symcbass]

Check out Rockabillybass.com for good feedback ideas.
I've got 2 laminates and a carved top, through the years I've tried everything, from high density foam between the tailpiece and body, to sealing the f-holes with foam too.
Now It's careful EQ'ing, choice of pickups and a good preamp. I'm using the D-TAR Solstice as a pre, and as much as It sounds nice, the Realist does not like volume. I still use my Underwood, much louder than the Realist, more aggressive sounding, also the Rev Solo 11 is about the same output as the Underwood, just a bit more natural sounding. Just my two cents..........

[ardi100]

I've got a Zeller solid top and am using a K&K Bassmax pickup. It's going through a Roland DB500 combo (160W single 12").

I used it today for the first time loud (and our drummer is LOUD - no chance of him learning to play dynamically, he turned up with only one stick!) and it was quite difficult to stop feeding back. I ended up cutting all frequencies (amp has bass, treble and a sweepable mid, which had best results with the lowest frequency cut) to get a decent sound. The other guys in the band said it sounded good but as I'm off to the side and not directly hearing the amp, it sounded a bit boomy to me.

I'm going to experiment with the pickup placement (anyone had any success with a Bassmax?) and amp placement - I'll try it off the floor.

Any other suggestions?

The Bassmax has a plate for fitting between the strings after the bridge but I've read that it's not a great idea to dampen the afterlength.

Any thoughts?

[teej]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='341953' date='Dec 1 2008, 02:50 PM']"you're not supposed to rape the drums, you need to make love to them, all the best horn players listen hard to the bass so as a drummer you're not supposed to drown the bass out" That in the days where basses weren't amplified at all.
If you take that quote seriously, and I do, you open the door to better music that is multi dimensional due to the increased variety of available dynamics, always loud is sh*t and some drummers are terrible for having an ego so big that they can't keep quiet enough to take the music out of a boring one dimensional space.
Of course there are drummers who play just right dynamically, If you're guy won't change, get one that will.[/quote]

That's so spot on... and is exactly why I've worked with Chicken-King Schultz for nearly 15 years. 2 drums, hi-hat, woodblock and cowbell, plus 1, maybe 2, cymbals. And brushes.

The man himself, busking with Red Jackson in Tunbridge Wells...



P.S. sorry, that's a bit off topic isn't it?

[ardi100]

[quote name='symcbass' post='365894' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:46 PM']Check out Rockabillybass.com for good feedback ideas.
I've got 2 laminates and a carved top, through the years I've tried everything, from high density foam between the tailpiece and body, to sealing the f-holes with foam too.
Now It's careful EQ'ing, choice of pickups and a good preamp. I'm using the D-TAR Solstice as a pre, and as much as It sounds nice, the Realist does not like volume. I still use my Underwood, much louder than the Realist, more aggressive sounding, also the Rev Solo 11 is about the same output as the Underwood, just a bit more natural sounding. Just my two cents..........[/quote]

Anyone using any other preamp/parametric eq to solve this?

I've been hunting around for a cheap parametric unit - there doesn't seem to be any- to try and sort this out.

Any suggestions welcome!

[bassace]

[quote name='ardi100' post='401730' date='Feb 6 2009, 07:44 AM']Anyone using any other preamp/parametric eq to solve this?

I've been hunting around for a cheap parametric unit - there doesn't seem to be any- to try and sort this out.

Any suggestions welcome![/quote]

I use a Fishman Pro eq which is the little brother of the Platinum eq and considerably cheaper. It has a phase reverser which sometimes (not always) can kill the feedback. Strangely I have never had low frequency feedback but used to get a high pitched whistle which I killed by turning the treble down to 'half of level'.

[ardi100]

[quote name='bassace' post='401847' date='Feb 6 2009, 10:41 AM']I use a Fishman Pro eq which is the little brother of the Platinum eq and considerably cheaper. It has a phase reverser which sometimes (not always) can kill the feedback. Strangely I have never had low frequency feedback but used to get a high pitched whistle which I killed by turning the treble down to 'half of level'.[/quote]

Thanks for that.

What exactly does the Platinum do that the Pro EQ doesn't? Can you target the feedback with the EQ part? I've been looking at the Platinum but I really don't need to be spending any money unnecessarily!

[Guest subaudio]

Heres what I do, it sounds a bit mad but it works for me and I generally play with a very hard hitting drummer and loud onstage volumes, I hold the bass facing the amp with all eq's flat then slowly raise the volume untill it just starts to feedback and then roll that frequency down on the amp till it stops the feedback, then slowly keep turning up untill I get to gig volume bringing down whatever starts to feed back until it stops, then it's a game of finding devills advocate between no feedback and a workable sound.

I also have an LR Bags pre amp DI that has a phase invert switch which does wonders, if I have that with me I switch that in and eq out any remaining feedback, this inverts the frequencies so if top end was feeding back it will switch to the bottom end and vice versa so that helps in getting a better sound at the end of it.
Hope this helps.

[hubrad]

I rarely get high volume feedback problems.. if the band want to be that loud they can have electric bass and be grateful!

[bassace]

[quote name='ardi100' post='401906' date='Feb 6 2009, 11:52 AM']Thanks for that.

What exactly does the Platinum do that the Pro EQ doesn't? Can you target the feedback with the EQ part? I've been looking at the Platinum but I really don't need to be spending any money unnecessarily![/quote]

I've never owned a Platinum (must do one day) so others may give you a more definitive reply on this. But not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me expressing an opinion up till now. As I'm aware, the Platinum has a DI facility, a compressor and a more comprehensive eq section. Try googling Fishman and it'll tell you all you need to know.

[teej]

[quote name='ardi100' post='401906' date='Feb 6 2009, 11:52 AM']Thanks for that.

What exactly does the Platinum do that the Pro EQ doesn't? Can you target the feedback with the EQ part? I've been looking at the Platinum but I really don't need to be spending any money unnecessarily![/quote]

I use the pro eq platinum all the time, and just dug it out of my gig bag... it has the following controls:
[list]
[*]volume
[*]input gain
[*]compression & depth controls
[*]5 band graphic: bass / low mid / mid / hi mid / treble
[*]phase switch
[/list]

It also has three outputs:
[list]
[*]xlr
[*]1/4 inch jack: output
[*]1/4 inch jack: tuner
[/list]

There are 2 more switches for the xlr output: lift/ground (don't know what this does ), and pre/post, which allows you to send a clean signal, or one with all your adjustments. So you could have your own sound going into your amp with a jack-to-jack, and a clean sound going to the pa.

Simply adding the preamp has eliminated any feedback problems for me, so I'm not sure exactly how you'd use it for that purpose, but as I understand it that's a combination of the phase switch and the graphic sliders.

Oh yes, it'll work on phantom power.

And I love it to bits.

Edited February 6, 2009 by teej