Should I upgrade my RCF 712a’s to 735a’s?

[Rik (ESA)]

Hi all,

Looking for some guidance from those in the know - I play in a 4 piece covers band with female lead vocals, and getting said vocals to the front of the mic is achievable but not the easiest. We do all the usual tricks (EQ, lowering volume of other instruments etc.) and use appropriate mics etc, so we’re now onto considering a louder speaker.

There are many a rave review on the RCF 735’s, but they currently push towards £1,800 for a pair, so I’m trying to determine how much extra they will actually add.

Of course, I know that alternatives exist so if anybody has other recommendations on the active tops front please let me know - we’ve had great results with the 712a’s which is why I’ve looked to RCF again as a starting point.

For reference, we use 2 x 905AS subs as well, which I’m not looking to change.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Rick

[mrtcat]

I have had a pair of Art 722a and a pair of 745a and they are like night and day. The 745s are absolutely immense. From what I gather the 735s are much closer to the 745s than the 722s so you should notice a big step up. That said I really liked the 722s and can't really imagine how loud the rest would have to be to make it difficult to get the vocals to the front of the mix. Are you using backline or is everything through FOH?

[Rik (ESA)]

Sorry I should have said, it’s the bigger venues where we lack a bit of headroom on the vocals, generally the 712 have done admirably.

I play bass through the PA and without an amp, but the guitarist has an amp onstage (not loud at all) and we have a live drummer. He has loud cymbals and snare but we’re looking at options to lower those volumes (different cymbals, and holding back on the snare).

Thanks very much for the response, very useful. Did you notice much of an upgrade moving from 12 inch cones to the 15s?

[pete.young]

Have you thought about trying a decent compressor on the vocals? Might be cheaper than a speaker upgrade.

[Owen]

7 hours ago, Rik (ESA) said:

holding back on the snare

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

I have actually heard it done, but it is the exception rather than the rule. If your drummer can then never let that drummer go. 

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, owen said:

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

I have actually heard it done, but it is the exception rather than the rule. If your drummer can then never let that drummer go. 

Odd, when there are so many ways of achieving this. Brushes, hot-rods, the famous 'wallet on the batter head', several types of muffler or damping ring. Changing the batter head for a thicker one will help a lot, or even an oil-filled head (I'm not a fan, but then again, I don't hit hard, so...). In extreme cases, a tea-towel spread over the drum tames it a lot, and sounds pretty good, usually..! The first prerequisite, though, and maybe the most difficult in some cases, is to get the drummer 'on board' with the necessity. Without that, there's little scope, I agree.
Just sayin'.

[pete.young]

Just now, Dad3353 said:

Odd, when there are so many ways of achieving this. Brushes, hot-rods, the famous 'wallet on the batter head', several types of muffler or damping ring. Changing the batter head for a thicker one will help a lot, or even an oil-filled head (I'm not a fan, but then again, I don't hit hard, so...). In extreme cases, a tea-towel spread over the drum tames it a lot, and sounds pretty good, usually..! The first prerequisite, though, and maybe the most difficult in some cases, is to get the drummer 'on board' with the necessity. Without that, there's little scope, I agree.
Just sayin'.

So the most important head is the only one you can't change? Though filling it with oil seems strangely attractive 🙂

[KingPrawn]

Earlier last year. I purchased a set of 745’s. These replaced a pair of 312’s and a rcf sub. We’ve haven’t looked back. We’re a team of players, performing in a variety of bands from classic rock, funk disco and folk. They handle everything with ease. No more subs, which is brilliant. Highly recommend making the jump 

[mrtcat]

17 hours ago, Rik (ESA) said:

Did you notice much of an upgrade moving from 12 inch cones to the 15s?

Yes it's a big difference because the 745s are voiced completely differently. The crossover to the horn is way lower on the 745s so it frees the 15 to really do some heavy lifting of the low end and the high end is very smooth so much more comfortable to listen to at high volume. It's not just the size of the driver but the quality of driver where the 745 (same in 735) totally outclasses the 712. I think you'd be very happy with a pair of 735s.

[Owen]

The 15" driver in the 735 has a 3" voice coil whereas the 15" driver in the 745 has a 4" voice coil - so more beef. They share the same sized HF driver (on cursory reading of the specs). Has anyone got any experience of A/B ing them in the real world? The crossover point is only 150hz difference which at 650hz and 800hz is (and I am TOTALLY guesstimating here) perhaps a major 3rd so not HUGE in the grand scheme of things. My GASeous nature always drains my finances and that would cost me an extra £300+. I am not actually going shopping tomorrow, this is just a storing info thing. However, for a speaker which appears to be ALL THAT, why are they both so ugly? Someone has to design them from scratch, so why not make them look like they cared for aesthetics. There is a whiff of Transformer about them.

[Blink]

Going back to your original post the problem is getting vocals to the front of the mix. Therefore you need speaker that will easily cater for that part of the frequency spectrum. Moving from 12's to 15's i suggest will make matters worse because you are moving to a more bass oriented speaker with out the benefit of a dedicated mid range driver which is where the vocals will sit in the mix.

For my band I use a pair of RCF Evox 8's. Each speaker has a 12" sub with a mini line array on top. These are perfect for vocals and are good for feedback rejection. They will also handle normal (not dub) bass SPL's with ease and they are also easy to transport.

You would need to get rid of your existing subs but your back and car will benefit.

N

[mrtcat]

3 hours ago, owen said:

The 15" driver in the 735 has a 3" voice coil whereas the 15" driver in the 745 has a 4" voice coil - so more beef. They share the same sized HF driver (on cursory reading of the specs). 

Not quite. The 4 inch voice coil they refer to is in the high end compression driver not the 15 inch driver. The 15 inch driver is identical on both but the 4 inch compression driver allows the 745 to crossover at a lower frequency. The 3 inch voice coil on the compression driver in the 735 is still a great driver but it's not quite as good as the exceptional one in the 745. 

[mrtcat]

49 minutes ago, Blink said:

Going back to your original post the problem is getting vocals to the front of the mix. Therefore you need speaker that will easily cater for that part of the frequency spectrum. Moving from 12's to 15's i suggest will make matters worse because you are moving to a more bass oriented speaker with out the benefit of a dedicated mid range driver which is where the vocals will sit in the mix.

The crossover on the 745 is set low (650Hz) so it is the compression driver that handles a large chunk of the vocals and this makes the 745 probably the best pa cab for vocal reproduction there is at this price point.

[Owen]

4 hours ago, mrtcat said:

Not quite. The 4 inch voice coil they refer to is in the high end compression driver not the 15 inch driver. The 15 inch driver is identical on both but the 4 inch compression driver allows the 745 to crossover at a lower frequency. The 3 inch voice coil on the compression driver in the 735 is still a great driver but it's not quite as good as the exceptional one in the 745. 

Classic - I must learn to read what is there and not what I perceive on a swift scan! You are, of course, correct. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by owen

[stingrayPete1977]

8 hours ago, Blink said:

Going back to your original post the problem is getting vocals to the front of the mix. Therefore you need speaker that will easily cater for that part of the frequency spectrum. Moving from 12's to 15's i suggest will make matters worse because you are moving to a more bass oriented speaker with out the benefit of a dedicated mid range driver which is where the vocals will sit in the mix.

For my band I use a pair of RCF Evox 8's. Each speaker has a 12" sub with a mini line array on top. These are perfect for vocals and are good for feedback rejection. They will also handle normal (not dub) bass SPL's with ease and they are also easy to transport.

You would need to get rid of your existing subs but your back and car will benefit.

N

The 735 and 745 are a totally different animal, the vocals barely gets anywhere near the main driver like the smaller models and typical cabs like Mackies.

 

[stingrayPete1977]

14 hours ago, mrtcat said:

Yes it's a big difference because the 745s are voiced completely differently. The crossover to the horn is way lower on the 745s so it frees the 15 to really do some heavy lifting of the low end and the high end is very smooth so much more comfortable to listen to at high volume. It's not just the size of the driver but the quality of driver where the 745 (same in 735) totally outclasses the 712. I think you'd be very happy with a pair of 735s.

Same here, we bought the 735s with a view of adding maybe a single sub but we haven't needed to and we put everything through the pa including the bass and kick drum. Coupled to an xair mixer and two powered monitors we've got a compact system that will blow an old fashioned system out the water not just for volume but quality of sound out front, I haven't heard vocals as clear from any PA!

[mrtcat]

14 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Coupled to an xair 

Really fabulous bit of kit for anyone doing live work and ridiculously cheap at the moment. I only stopped using mine to upgrade to an x32 rack which is incredible and seems to have hotter outputs than the XR18 we had.

[Rik (ESA)]

We use a soundcraft ui16 and have been looking at a ui24 for the extra channels, as the mixer itself has been excellent, particularly with an external router.

Any views on how it compares to the Behringer? The number of channels in the XR18 makes that an option, and like you say, a cheaper one given recent reductions...

[mrtcat]

1 hour ago, Rik (ESA) said:

We use a soundcraft ui16 and have been looking at a ui24 for the extra channels, as the mixer itself has been excellent, particularly with an external router.

Any views on how it compares to the Behringer? The number of channels in the XR18 makes that an option, and like you say, a cheaper one given recent reductions...

I can't comment on the soundcraft gear but I do think you'd be hard pressed to beat the X32 rack as it's currently £634 (over £100 less than the UI24R) and is far more feature packed and configurable than the XR18 and can be expanded in future if you need more ins and outs.

Edited November 15, 2018 by mrtcat