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Watts manufacturers doings to us - RMS vs Peak - it’s time to take a stand

Cuzzie

By Cuzzie,
in Amps and Cabs

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Al Krow Grand Master

Al Krow

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Muzz said:

I've been surprised at the easy ride Trickfish have had with regard to RMS/Peak power claims and the car crash that is their specs for the 1k and .5k amps, and the somewhat, erm, creative naming of them...

Well that was exactly the reason I walked away from Trickfish when I found out that their "1K" amp was both more expensive, significantly less headroom (at around 500W RMS) and just generally less exciting than my DG M900.

Ok I'm just one fish in the sea as far as they're concerned, but they certainly weren't about to trick me.

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chris_b Grand Master

chris_b

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, dyerseve said:

It doesn't matter. Because it's not in the amps specification.

People, especially nowadays with so much online retail, will often buy site unseen and will bass their purchases on specification provided by the manufacturer. If this spec is not accurate then they have every right to feel agreaved.

Subjectivity has no place in specifications.

So you guys are saying that it doesn't matter how good an amp sounds, the only thing that matters is the design spec? Pull the other one!

TC were selling a 250 watt amp that was as loud as a 500 watt amp. The only "problem" you've got is they called it 500 watts. As it was as loud as a 500 watt amp then is anyone really going to feel short changed when they start gigging and find it is as loud as all the other 500 watt amps?

As I say the "noise" came from internet armchair experts. The guys who gigged those TC amps were happy their amps were performing well.

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dyerseve Mentor

dyerseve

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, chris_b said:

So you guys are saying that it doesn't matter how good an amp sounds, the only thing that matters is the design spec? Pull the other one!

TC were selling a 250 watt amp that was as loud as a 500 watt amp. The only "problem" you've got is they called it 500 watts. As it was as loud as a 500 watt amp then is anyone really going to feel short changed when they start gigging and find it is as loud as all the other 500 watt amps?

As I say the "noise" came from internet armchair experts. The guys who gigged those TC amps were happy their amps were performing well.

Here is you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the point....

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scalpy Mentor

scalpy

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Well that was exactly the reason I walked away from Trickfish when I found out that their "1K" amp was both more expensive, significantly less headroom (at around 500W RMS) and just generally less exciting than my DG M900.

Ok I'm just one fish in the sea as far as they're concerned, but they certainly weren't about to trick me.

I asked Trickfish straight up about their power ratings and they flat refused to give an answer. Similar to a post further up there was the ‘its impossible to qualify and there are so many variables’ argument. So I did vote- I didn’t buy one of their amps.

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wateroftyne Grand Master

wateroftyne

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

They only get away with what we let them. Reference the TC watts controversy, when TC was caught red handed flat out lying about their power specs. You'd think that universal condemnation would have followed, yet a substantial percentage of TC owners defended TC, saying in essence that they didn't care if they were lied to, so long as the amps sounded good.

I came to the realisation fairly early on that my RH450 had the dynamic response of a semi-deflated paddling pool. When the ratings scandal broke, it explained everything, but I'd sold it long before that.

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grandad Proficient

grandad

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I came to the realisation fairly early on that my RH450 had the dynamic response of a semi-deflated paddling pool. When the ratings scandal broke, it explained everything, but I'd sold it long before that.

And yet others have said how much they liked them and thought there was plenty of power on hand!

(I've not tried one but do have the BH250 which I'm happy with).

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itu Grand Master

itu

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, dyerseve said:

RMS is already a standard measure for amp output so I think it would be better to tweak the existing std so all manufacturers report their amps outputs under the same parameters. Especially helpful would be to show the amps output and how it varied into differing loads as obviously a Class A amp will perform very differently to a Class D and so on and so on.

I think it would also help if the general amp buying public were given more info on matching amps to cabs and how reduced impedance impacted the amps output, how speaker sensitivity factors into SPL but also how it relates to watts required etc etc.

I stand on your side: there should be numbers (not just one, because it does not exist) that could be compared to each other. It is far too easy to write down too huge marketing numbers.

To be honest, this standardization should be taught to customers, too. We are the ones to use those test method related numbers. I am so tired damn whizzed to read someone demand for a 4 ohm cabinet "because it is so much louder" rubbish cow poop. If the amp is not capable of delivering watts to the lo-Z cabinet, how on earth a young bloke can make a buying decision in the shop? And if we are talking about tubes/valves, there are even more magical words there flying back and forth: this impedance thing seems to be very important for tubemasters. Impedance is not constant. This is just basics. The ability to push power to a cabinet relates to few other parameters, than just impedance. But no. Music making equipment is so "magical". "I want 4 ohms!" OK, please do so. Buy an inefficient speaker box that has reflex/ported/open/vented/closed/hype word design just because you have an illusion that it is so much louder and better.

Once more: as long as manufacturers produce only incomparable marketing hype, the best and only tool you can use and rely on, is your own ears. It really does not matter, what others say. It is trial and error, or in a more technical term: just A/B-testing.

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Lozz196 Grand Master

Lozz196

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, chris_b said:

So you guys are saying that it doesn't matter how good an amp sounds, the only thing that matters is the design spec? Pull the other one!

TC were selling a 250 watt amp that was as loud as a 500 watt amp. The only "problem" you've got is they called it 500 watts. As it was as loud as a 500 watt amp then is anyone really going to feel short changed when they start gigging and find it is as loud as all the other 500 watt amps?

As I say the "noise" came from internet armchair experts. The guys who gigged those TC amps were happy their amps were performing well.

 

28 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

the only way you can decide on an amp is to use it in a band setting, if you play in a band that is.

These posts nail it for me. If an amp is loud enough for my needs, and sounds good in my band then although I think it’s a tad sneaky to label it as something it’s not, well it’s not the label that either I or the audience are going to hear. I’ve had a couple of TC amps and irrespective of their advertised wattage they were plenty loud enough. I didn’t push them mind, so can’t say if the volume was available all round the dial but for the gigs I did with them they were fine little amps.

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Japhet Grand Master

Japhet

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

 

These posts nail it for me. If an amp is loud enough for my needs, and sounds good in my band then although I think it’s a tad sneaky to label it as something it’s not, well it’s not the label that either I or the audience are going to hear. I’ve had a couple of TC amps and irrespective of their advertised wattage they were plenty loud enough. I didn’t push them mind, so can’t say if the volume was available all round the dial but for the gigs I did with them they were fine little amps.

I'd say it's more than 'a bit sneaky'. TC would be well aware that many people shopping for an amp would be swayed by the manufacturer's jargon. Buyers would be well aware that a 100 watt amp (or whatever) wouldn't meet their needs and would most likely have a wattage figure in mind as an indicator of how loud the amp would be. Before Basschat, I would most likely have been one of those people, but I've now been educated by people who aren't trying to flog something to me. It would be like buying a car and only finding out when you put a caravan on the back of it that it couldn't pull the thing up a hill and subsequently being told that the manufacturer's horsepower figures were 50% of what they said. I've never used a TC head so I wouldn't know how they stack up, but there are as many people disappointed as happy with the volume they produce, but I'd hazard a guess that the disappointed contingent push their amps a lot harder (maybe through inefficient cabs). Either way, advertised wattage is a big selling point.

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chris_b Grand Master

chris_b

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Japhet said:

 but there are as many people disappointed as happy with the volume they produce,

I wouldn't bet on that.

People didn't like the tone and others wanted to kick TC about their marketing claims, but I haven't yet seen a post that says these amps were too quiet. TC sold 500 watt and 750 watt "boosted" amps. These amps stood up against all other amps in their class in terms of volume. That's why they sold and there were many happy users. Let me repeat, many happy users.

I had the Staccato and RH750. They were loud enough to rattle your fillings out. Whether you like the tone or not is a preference, that they were loud enough is a fact. I sold the RH750 to fund my Thunderfunk, but this "nonsense", obviously caused by TC's marketing dept, has more to do with internet "experts" than it does TC.

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Stylon Pilson Rising Star

Stylon Pilson

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, dyerseve said:

I'm sure these same people must think the VW emission scandal is also a non-issue. I mean as long as you enjoy driving the car who really cares about the figures quoted...

🤔

That's a nonsensical argument. If it turned out that my RH450 was emitting clouds of poisonous fumes then of course I'd bloody well stop using it.

S.P.

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chris_b Grand Master

chris_b

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, dyerseve said:

I'm sure these same people must think the VW emission scandal is also a non-issue. I mean as long as you enjoy driving the car who really cares about the figures quoted...

🤔

I don't think so.

In this case, and apparently with some other German car manufacturers, it was illegal activity and they were just plain cheating their customers and the regulatory bodies. Of course you would care because you were getting worse fuel economy that they were being told, ie driving was costing more than they were leading you to believe. There are no parallels between this and the TC subject at all.

 

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dyerseve Mentor

dyerseve

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I don't think so.

In this case, and apparently with some other German car manufacturers, it was illegal activity and they were just plain cheating their customers and the regulatory bodies. Of course you would care because you were getting worse fuel economy that they were being told, ie driving was costing more than they were leading you to believe. There are no parallels between this and the TC subject at all.

 

but you're quite happy for this amp manufacturer to lie to it's customers. ok sure, that makes sense...

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dyerseve Mentor

dyerseve

Posted
Posted
34 minutes ago, Stylon Pilson said:

That's a nonsensical argument. If it turned out that my RH450 was emitting clouds of poisonous fumes then of course I'd bloody well stop using it.

S.P.

you're either happy for manufacturers to lie and cheat or you arent

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