Upgrade speaker, advice?

[funkydoug]

Hi, 

I'm considering whether to replace the stock Ashdown driver with a better one as while I love ashdown amps the MAG combo I have is a bit let down by the speaker. It was a cheap combo so it can't have been a high spec driver but I really like the MAG amps. 

It is a 37litre box with a cylindrical port. Haven't measured the port. The amp puts out 300watts (RMS) at 4ohms.

I like the idea of a very sensitive 8ohm speaker as its leaves me with the option handling much bigger stages with a big second cab. With a box this size (quite small but not tiny), is it worth spending about £100 for a more efficient driver? My main question is about how much bass / bottom end / h-word it'll ever deliver..

Lastly, and I can guess the answer but will ask anyway, would anyone make the tempting but probably unwise move of putting a 300w 4ohm speaker in there?

 

Anyone done it? Worth the cost and faff? 

Cheers, Doug 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by funkydoug

[Dem Jolie-blues]

I often change the look of amps and cabs,  but I leave the mathematics  of it alone,  there's been a few driver units on fleabay recently,  can't be too big a job now I think about it, apart from cost ?, all my bass amps are Ashdown,  all my bass cabs are Orange. Good luck if you bite the bullet.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Dem Jolie-blues
Spelling

[Lozz196]

Give Ashdown a call, they were incredibly helpful when I had a similar query.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, funkydoug said:

would anyone make tempting but probably unwise move of putting a 300w 4ohm speaker in there?

If loudspeaker software modeling software showed that it made a significant improvement over the original driver it could be worth it. If you can't confirm it first then just tossing in a driver based on watts and ohms alone would be a very unwise move.

[funkydoug]

Thanks for the replies - very much appreciated.

I'll have a look at Win ISD to see if I can get a sense of what the options are.

[Jack]

If you measure the port (and between that and the box size you work out the tuning) then winisd will let you see what each driver will do. Alternatively one of the many DIY enthusiasts may be able to eyeball a good suggestion.

 

Nice to see a fellow local, there aren't many of us on here!

[funkydoug]

Thanks for the moral support Jack:)

I've measured the port now at 5.5cm in diameter and 5cm deep. 

This could be the start of a nice learning journey as at the moment winISD seems to have a bit of a learning curve. Can't be rocket science... Or can it?? 

 

[Chienmortbb]

Is it the 1x15 version?

[funkydoug]

No, it's the 1x12 that they did in Tweed, lovely looking combo with a great amp that ticks alot of my boxes. Just wondering about whether a speaker upgrade would make it even better. 

Cheers, Doug 

[Chienmortbb]

Might be I will chek it for you later.

[Chienmortbb]

Have you got one or two ports?

[funkydoug]

One cylindrical port, at the front, measurements above. 

Thanks mate 👍

[funkydoug]

Bit of an update on this. 

The amp is great in many ways but does feel a bit constrained by the speaker... or at least I can't help thinking that. 

Can anyone tell me anything about the internal speaker? It has the ashdown blueline sticker and this one too. Can anyone decode it? 

Cheers, Doug 

Edited November 26, 2018 by funkydoug

[stevie]

37 litres is about the smallest useable volume for your typical 12" bass guitar speaker. The big stumbling block is the 5.5cm port, which will compress and make noises at a very low level. Try playing a low E through it and listen.

Because the size of the cabinet plays a huge part in determining the efficiency of the system, you can't really make a cab more efficient just by sticking another driver in there. The efficiency at low frequencies is determined almost entirely by the size of the cab.

I think your best option is adding a second cab.

[funkydoug]

Really appreciate your input Stevie. I'm feeling a bit bamboozled by the number of options, including everything from selling it to buying a second one!! 

I am starting to agree that a second cab seems the best bet and if I can find one used it'd probably be as cheap as buying a new driver. 

 

Can I also thank you for your input into the other cab threads. I have really got a lot out of them. You guys should write a book! 

Cheers, Doug 

 

 

[funkydoug]

Probably a daft question really but... If the port is the main problem, what would sealing the port do? 

[stevie]

It's likely to be worse. You can easily try it out by stuffing a t-shirt in there to block it up. You'll then have a sealed cab.

As long as there's space on the baffle and you don't mind a bit of DIY, you could upgrade the performance of your existing cab by making the port bigger. The driver itself doesn't look half bad. You can buy plastic ports cheaply to give the hole a professional look. One of these would enlarge the port and tune your cab to the same frequency you have now:

<https://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=TUFFBR75&amp;browsemode=manufacturer>

You'd probably still need a second cab though.

[chris_b]

When you start hearing things you don't like about your gear, it's time to move on.

Time to upgrade and buy one you like the sound of right out of the box.

[funkydoug]

Great suggestion Stevie, although real estate on the baffle might be too tight. I'll have to measure up. 

Would a second 5.5cm one be a good, idea? 

@chris_b I hear you, and I may do that, but gonna explore some options before parting with it. Think I've enjoyed the build diaries too much

 

[stevie]

A second 5.5cm port would be a good idea, yes - but you'd then have to extend the length of each port, including the original one. A single 7.5cm port would be better if you can fit it in.

[Phil Starr]

Stevie is right, that looks like a decent speaker, that's quite a big magnet compared with some OEM drivers. I think it unlikely you'd get a huge improvement in output just by swapping it, though you might get a tone you'd prefer, or not.

I thought I'd answered this but maybe someone else asked a similar question. Since you are thinking of building another cab then one option would be to build a cab and try out a speaker by disconnecting the internal driver and plugging in the new one. That way you'd have your extension cab and would be able to compare it with the original Ashdown driver. Actually if you can find people with 1x12 8ohm cabs of around 37 litres you could even try those out without having to build anything.

I'm currently using the Beyma SM212 in a 30litre cab successfully and modelled it in a 40 and 35 litre cab where it modelled well. so it might be a candidate.

It may be that Ashdown could provide you with an 8 ohm driver if you tell them what you are trying to do, they are exceptionally helpful.

The thing to realise however is how subjective our impression of sound is. A lot of what we perceive as bass is actually around the 100Hz area, deep bass is often a bit of an embarrassment on many stages, Heft? I'm really not sure what that means and suspect we all hear it differently. However changing drivers is going to change the upper range of your bass quite a lot too and you will hear those differences much more than any small changes in bass output. your difficulty will be in not knowing what the changes might be  until it is too late and you've bought a speaker you aren't happy with. However having two drivers will really increase your efficiency and your maximum output, you'll be able to run your amp lower or decrease the distortion when you run at high levels, you'll be able to use a bit more bass boost if you need it, raise your speaker off the ground nearer your ears so there are lots of gains to be had potentially. An 8ohm combo with n extension speaker is a very sensible way to go.

On the minus side what would you get if you sold the Ashdown, add in the cost of two 8ohm drivers and ask what you would/could buy with that sum. £200 plus the Ashdown might offer you more for your money with the chance of trying it before you buy. 

[stevie]

I don't think he was thinking of building a cab, Phil.

There's an Ashdown 1x12 for sale on here at the moment for £100 which could be a good investment for Doug. If the combination doesn't work, he can always re-sell without losing much, but I expect he'd be quite happy.

[funkydoug]

Phil can add mind reading to his list of talents as I had definitely considered a cab build! As much as I fancy having a go at that there are some very solid suggestions here and that 1x12 for sale on BC just now is getting ever more tempting! 

 

Phil I'll l add here what I said to Stevie above. Thanks for your input here and the inspiring build diaries!  Great stuff and a very valuable contribution to BC. 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by funkydoug

[funkydoug]

Right - quick update.

Taking some good suggestions on board I decided to increase the size of the port, using the Tuffcab port Stevie linked to. Ordered it and got hold of a suitable hole saw for my drill.

This is where it gets a bit less straightforward. It has been pointed out before that I'm not the greatest DIYer, but I'm not shy of having a go ... purists should look away!

I tried to use the hole saw to increase the size of the existing port but soon realised that would end in a mess because of the lack of a pilot hole in the middle of the hole with which to anchor the drill. 

So, drill in hand a nice empty bit of baffle on the other side of the driver staring me in the face I couldn't help but drill a new 80mm hole (the new port is 75 internal but 80mm external) into the baffle. So I now have a 80mm hole in the baffle awaiting a tube to be delivered for it and the existing 55mm port with 50mm-long tube. The plan is to use the new port tube and fill in the other one, leaving me with just one larger port as Stevie had suggested. That will be easy (should be at least) but of course with a day or so on my hands until the delivery of the tube what did I do? Plugged in my bass of course!

I don't know what the maths of it are, or how it 'ought' to sound like this but with the original port intact and a 80mm hole in the baffle it sounds great! I realise there is all kinds of subjectivity at play here but it does *seem* to sound bigger and be able to handle the big bass notes better. If that ends up being a problem (if it gets boomy) the ashdown has a decent eq for taming that. I'd be really interested to know whether the more educated folks like Stevie and Phil think I'm just easily pleased, hearing things or whether there is any reason why this ought to sound good.

So - for now at least - it looks tidy with the nicely cut extra hole and the sound seems to be an improvement. At the cost of a 34p port that hasn't even arrived yet and a drill bit!

 

Thanks guys  

Doug.

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by funkydoug

[stevie]

A bit of patience isn't a bad idea when you have a saw in your hand, Doug.😀 Anyway, I'll try to explain what's going on, although none of this is 100% reliable as I don't have the cabinet here and I'm relying on the accuracy of your 37 litres measurement.

When I checked the tuning of your cab with the 50mm port, it worked out at around 42Hz. That's normally too low, and I expect the port wasn't doing very much at all - even ignoring the fact that it would be compressing very early. By cutting an 80mm hole, you have tuned the cabinet higher, to just over 60Hz by my rough reckoning. That would normally be too high, as it would seriously reduce  power handling at the lowest frequencies, but the combination of greater port area allowing the ports to do their job more efficiently and the higher tuning frequency means that the ports will now actually be producing useable sound. So you should be hearing a difference, as you clearly have done.

When your plastic port arrives and before you seal up the55mm hole - and make sure it's sealed solid - you could compare the cab with the 55mm port and with the 75mm port by blocking each one in turn with a t-shirt or similar, and having a listen. You should then be able to hear the difference between the old and the modified cab.

I had the impression originally that there wasn't much free space on the baffle. So my question now is - would there be room on the baffle for a 100mm port in place of the 75mm one? But please don't go sawing any more holes until we measure what you have now. For that we need a frequency sweep generator and some rice. Although maybe you've now had enough DIY.....

Edited November 27, 2018 by stevie