What are you using to amplify your double bass?

[alexclaber]

Have had some bright ideas recently about a better cab solution for double bassists and am curious to find out what everyone currently uses, what they like about their current rig and what its limitations are. Would be good to know what amps you use and also what contexts you play your upright bass in (big band, piano trio, swing/jump, etc)

Thanks!

Alex

[guyl]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='342954' date='Dec 2 2008, 12:59 PM']Have had some bright ideas recently about a better cab solution for double bassists and am curious to find out what everyone currently uses, what they like about their current rig and what its limitations are. Would be good to know what amps you use and also what contexts you play your upright bass in (big band, piano trio, swing/jump, etc)

Thanks!

Alex[/quote]

The perfect cab would be a "one-fits-all". Doesn't matter what music/context it is, I wish my amplified upright could sound warm and woody for small groups/low volume, but be capable of flapping trousers if required. Of course the perfect cab would also be small and light!

I use 2 EA VL110 cabs (10", 5" and tweeter) when the gig is smaller. (One doesn't cut it on its own) I love their clear sound and built in "stand" to angle back. They don't "punch" through on loud gigs, and are a touch heavy for their size. The EAs also seem to suck power. You end up driving a medium sized amp quite hard, which doesn't sound as good with upright (IMHO)

For louder gigs its a markbass 4x10. An easy carry and far louder than anything you could ever want. However - it's a real compromise sound-wise, with the midrange "bump" making the upright sound a bit too electric and rather prone to feedback.

I know EA make larger cabs, but I'm not sure how portable they are and they also fail on one other "perfect cab" requirement ....... they're bl00dy dear!!

Oh, and I double on electric. The cab needs to sound good with both!

[alexclaber]

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply! Interesting that you need both VL110s to be loud enough - do you play any gigs where one cab is sufficient?

Alex

[alexclaber]

And is feedback ever a problem?

Alex

[guyl]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='343151' date='Dec 2 2008, 04:10 PM']Thanks for the very comprehensive reply! Interesting that you need both VL110s to be loud enough - do you play any gigs where one cab is sufficient?[/quote]

Don't get me wrong - 1 cab alone sounds great and would be fine for low volume gigs. Two just sounds better - fuller - bassier. On many gigs I do, I'm not exactly sure what the set up will be before leaving home. (eg how loud, PA support, background noise, other musos etc). I've turned up with only one cab and been underpowered before. Hence i always use 2.

Feedback isn't a problem with the EA's. I can't say i've never fed back through an EA cab, but I would blame the pickup or amp settings rather than the cabs. I think the EA transparancy and even response make it easier to fix feedback with a decent eq than a cab like the markbass.

What's your plan Alex?

[Beer of the Bass]

I'm also using EA gear - a single Wizzy 10 cabinet, with an Acoustic Image Clarus amp. My band situation is kind of transitory at the moment, so I'm not using it for a steady gig currently, but I've used it in a number of different situations.
In small venue gigs, with an unmiked drum kit, and other instruments miked through the PA it generally does a great job. With one particular drummer (who comes from a metal background), I feel as if I'm about at the limit of this rig though. On larger stages with a DI output to the PA, it provides plenty of level as a monitor, unless the sound guy has put lots of drums in the wedges, at which point it struggles a little. Provided I'm in a situation where the volume is sufficient, I'm very happy with the sound of this setup - it's very clear but not overly harsh in the high end. I think my ideal situation would be to have two of these, and leave one at home for smaller gigs.
I get the impression that the fundamentals of the lowest few notes are a little shy with this cab (compared to listening to a recording of my bass pickup signal through studio monitors), but those frequencies aren't that prominent in the acoustic sound either. So the low-end roll off of the cab probably helps to tame the pickup sound somewhat.

[tauzero]

I put mine (EUB, not acoustic DB) through a GK 200MB (older version of the MB150), but that's generally just as a personal monitor for me as the rest of the band are entirely acoustic. We feed everything through a Peavey XR886 and a pair of Peavey moulded speakers.

I also occasionally use it with the BG rig, which currently consists of Ashdown Superfly and a homemade 2x10 using Skytronics speakers, which sounds good but is very inefficient.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='guyl' post='343651' date='Dec 2 2008, 11:06 PM']What's your plan Alex?[/quote]

Plan A is 1x10" with a forward-firing 5" mid plus a rear-firing 5" mid with L-pads on both mids and different crossover points to give near-omnidirectional response but allow you to control how the midrange is being dispersed. Possibly also an upward firing tweeter. The logic behind this is to match the radiation pattern of a double bass as closely as possible.

Plan B is a dipole 15" plus a dipole mid. This crazy idea only produces low frequencies in front and behind the speaker - to either side there is a null where front and back output cancel out. Thus if you place this cab directly beside you and your bass there will be no low frequency energy from the cabinet feeding back into the double bass. It will also produce fairly omnidirectional output above the bass region so you get a closer match of on-axis output and total radiated output regardless of the acoustic space you're in. If you were looking to produce the perfect double bass cab regardless of portability or cost I believe this would be the way to do it but it is both large and power-hungry.

Alex

[TPJ]

A 15 added way too much low end, but this was for my DB. Others might vary.
A 10 or twelve gives a good balance of low and mid without being too boomy.

[jakenewmanbass]

I can get just the right amount of weight into the sound of my db with a schroeder 212L I power it with a BK electronics 1200w poweramp after an Alembic F1-X Pre. The cab seems able to be very loud without interfering with the resonance of the bass, plus I'm using an underwood which is hardly the most sophisticated of front ends (I'm going to upgrade that soon)
I really like this rig and despite being a bit big for real portability (I couldn't use the tube with it) It offers a really good balance of size to power.
Twelves are perfect for the characteristics of a double bass in my experience, with careful tone shaping you can achieve good tone with larger and smaller speakers but I have simply found that easier when using twelves.

That rig suffices for all types of gig for me for double and electric, small trio/quartet, up to big band and my originals project which is more groove based.

Edited December 3, 2008 by jakesbass

[BassBod]

I'm using a few options for both EUB and acoustic. Most used (lazy option) is GKMB150 - no real lows, but does a good impression of a great amp - and so easy to cart around and set up.

For more critical situatons, one or two EA CXL110's with either iamp500 or Acoustic Image Clarus. Better sound, but more weight and set up time.

For recording its the Alembic F2B, or "good" DI plus a mike on the acoustic.

Situations vary from small virtually acoustic, no drums, through to festival stages with noisy drummers. I like to go without backline when possible, but usually carry the GK as insurance.

There are a lot of situations where ease of use is more important than sound quality - even the EUB is relatively large and heavy, and I normally drive/ shift my own gear. Maybe I should care more...but a lot of the time its about getting the job done with minimal hassle.

[bassace]

I generally go the Clarus/Wizzy route as most of you guys. Sometimes a 10" Wizzy for trios and a 10"/12" together for the seven-piece. Having tried most of the popular pickups I now always use an Underwood on all my basses. My latest project is to use an ATM350 mic to front of house. Sounds really great and a true DB sound. Trouble is there is not always FoH or an adequate PA. So I'm taking my own mini PA with me. This comprises a second Clarus and a Wizzy 10 on the floor at the front of the stage. The backline simply acts as a monitor. Extra gear is one small amp and one small speaker and some extra cable - no trouble really.

[timo]

Where is good to buy EA/Acoustic Image stuff from in the UK? Is there just Overwater? I keep thinking about getting a new amp as I'm using a bog standard Ashdown combo at the moment and a lot of the time it sounds like if it had a nose it would be being pinched... Although I can't imagine I'll be able to afford one any time soon And they seem like the kind of thing you would buy and then keep for eternity so there aren't many second hand ones knocking around.

[BassBod]

Hi Timo,

I got most of my stuff here (including the GK) - much better value secondhand. Keep an eye open on the for sales pages...

[TPJ]

[quote name='bassace' post='344204' date='Dec 3 2008, 02:59 PM']My latest project is to use an ATM350 mic to front of house. Sounds really great and a true DB sound.[/quote]

That's interesting. I was going to go that route and tried [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=482357"]this setup[/url].
It gets a great sound, especially blended with my Revolution 2 pup.

There are loads of rigs for DB Alex, it may be a case of try it and see what happens. I'm not too keen on a 15 though. A 10 or 12 is a bit more focused sound.

[guyl]

I wouldn't be too dismissive of a 15" speaker. Isn't the "box" on an upright acting as a bass speaker anyway? And that's about 2ft wide.

Never played through a cab with a rear facing speaker. Doesn't that cause trouble when your playing in a corner or against a wall?

[johnny dissident]

I also use the Clarus and currently EA cxl 1x10 and cxl 1x12 with both electric and upright. I find the 10 inch fantastic for small rehearsal situations but it just dos'nt cut it on a stage, even in a small pub .The 12 inch on the other hand seems to deliver rich tone right across the spectrum ,but even that ,with a noisy electric guitar on stage ,can't bring the double bass up in the mix.I use the two cabs together but the 10 just disappears .Is the way to go 4x10 or 4x12 ? can anyone recommend any ?

[BassBus]

[quote name='guyl' post='344926' date='Dec 3 2008, 11:17 PM']Never played through a cab with a rear facing speaker. Doesn't that cause trouble when your playing in a corner or against a wall?[/quote]

Wouldn't have thought so. The wall becomes a sounding board and spreads the sound further. Take the Acoustic Image Contra. Tiny amp with a down firing 10inch speaker. Competes with large horn sections anyday. Lift it up off the floor and it looses all it's power.

[BassBod]

I find two EA CXL110s or one CXL112 go about as loud as I'd ever want on stage, with acoustic or EUB. The audience is far better off hearing the bass through the PA if that much level is needed. The CXL112 is the best all round cab I've used or even heard for bass guitar or double - but at 44 lbs or so its too much for a lot of small pubs and clubs.

I guess my ideal cab would be something very similar to the CXL112, but ever so slightly smaller, about 10 lbs lighter and with a waxed plywood look like the Bag End. and I'd want two, for louder situations.

How's that for a spec?

Edited December 4, 2008 by BassBod

[bassace]

CXL is very good but bloody heavy. I bought one through basschat but have never used it on a gig due to its weight. I'll make the effort one day and curse myself for not having used it sooner. I ran it in the garage and found it's a very nice bright speaker for upright.

[timo]

If budget allowed for either a good amp or a good cab which would it be better to go for first?

[BassBod]

I'd say amp - you also get the benefit of a better DI. Lighter good cabs are now on the used market, so take your time and there will be more choice.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='guyl' post='344926' date='Dec 3 2008, 11:17 PM']I wouldn't be too dismissive of a 15" speaker. Isn't the "box" on an upright acting as a bass speaker anyway? And that's about 2ft wide.[/quote]

Exactly!

When you play a note on the double bass most of the sound comes from the front and back of the body. There is additional lower frequency output from the f-holes and also high frequency percussives and noise from the strings. So in an ideal world your amplifer should emulate this radiation pattern to get as natural a sound as possible.

The weird thing about this 15" design I'm pondering is that the speaker isn't in a normal box - it's simply a speaker on a baffle, but with the baffle wrapping around a bit to increase the apparent size. This open-baffle concept gives a very quick fast sound with few spurious resonances from the box. Also the speaker acts as a velocity source, not a pressure source, just like the front and back of the double bass. I'm then thinking of having a top mounted dipole midrange which would fire upwards (and downwards) giving the player a very clear sound but giving the band and audience a more mellow sound. The battle with such a design is to get enough sensitivity but I think it has potential.

Alex

[TheRev]

For small gigs (vocal only thru PA) I use a LMII and a BFM Omni 10.5 and I can get a very nice defined sound. For larger gigs where everything is going through the PA I find that the Omni 10.5 is drowned out by the PA and monitoring.

Adding a second 10.5 gives a sound that cuts through the mix but can be a bit bassy for my tastes. It's also added hassle so for those gigs I just go into my preamp and then straight into the PA.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='guyl' post='344926' date='Dec 3 2008, 11:17 PM']I wouldn't be too dismissive of a 15" speaker. Isn't the "box" on an upright acting as a bass speaker anyway? And that's about 2ft wide.[/quote]

I wouldn't directly dispute that as I am nowhere near technically savvy enough to be able to hold a cogent argument up in favour of cabs other than fifteens, but what I will say is this:

Amplifying DB in my experience is a compromise from the outset and I have spoken to many bass players that express preference for slightly smaller speakers, generally 10s or 12s. The point I think it would be worth considering from Alex's pov is this:

If you accept that amplification is a compromise, then in my belief the preference that bass players express is based upon displaying of the least bad characteristics or indeed that some certain characteristics of the sound are favourably produced. You may successfully argue that technically, a 15 [i]can[/i] produce the desired characteristics, your potential downfall is that in my experience they also display unfavourable characteristics that DB players do not like. And all the theory in the world will not persuade them to buy a product because in theory it does the job.

The ultimate judgement is the sound. So I would say use a research process that starts from a perspective of what sounds DB players want to hear as a minimum standard, and what do they dislike.

Edited December 4, 2008 by jakesbass