Tuning question/ recommendations

[eude]

On 06/12/2018 at 13:04, Saved said:

So,you can ask Neil from newtone strings to build you a string that do all these.Tell him the pitch,the scale and how stiff you like the touch of the strings,and he will do the rest 😉

I'd second this.
Neil can wind you a more regular feeling string with a thicker core to meet your requirements without feeling like you're playing on suspension bridge cables.

Rig wise, shame you missed out on this >> 

That would've been the perfect solution to such an insanely low tuning, for very silly money.

Eude

[danny-79]

57 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

I'd not go lighter than 145 or 150. That's stupidly low. 

This is kind of endemic these days. It's funny how bands that are still considered "heavy" have managed it without drop tuning to Z flat. Sabbath were generally C#, Tool mostly drop D. I could go on. As someone who has 4 string basses that I'm not going to replace the nut on just to detune to wet fart territory, I make a rule that if I can't do it with DR Droptune strings or a Digitech Drop pedal ( below C# is the limit) then I'm not interested at all.

That’s my theory. BEAD is about as low as I’m willing to go and even that is a bit much. D standard is about right for me 

Its just silly stupid low and I’m not willing to punish my basses setting them up to accommodate 

[chris_b]

There might be a valid reason for this request, but I can't think of one!

Why are you playing a low Ab? Do you need this for open notes?  Could you work from a higher Ab or does it have to be this low one? Would an Octaver work?

[EliasMooseblaster]

1 hour ago, Wolverinebass said:

Sabbath were generally C#, Tool mostly drop D. I could go on.

...and Sabbath were partly just in lower tunings to make the string tension easier on Tony Iommi's mutilated fingers!

[thodrik]

I have a 5 string tuned to A flat on the B string with a set of DR DDTs. It is fun, but in my opinion once I start playing stuff below a low A, I find it easier to play a note an octave up. 

I have played with guitars going as low down as F sharp, it is a tough push for me to set up a bass to accommodate that, so I just use the note an octave up. Even the bassist in Meshuggah doesn't drop down to the level of the guitars.

I do like downtuning but I am more of a stoner/doom bass player when it comes to downtuning rather than the modern djent stuff that needs a really fast attack and precise definition. 

[Saved]

The bad thing with down tuned basses,is that there is no definition on the note you playing,but some songs (like enter sandman) sound better if you transpose them and play them lower.

For me,i like to try new things with my basses.When i say "i play bass guitar" its not clear what i am actually doing.Because i dont play bass guitar.

I play with bass guitar.That means,i try different setups,effects like flanger,making "horror movies ghost sounds",tune them different than normal,and other things.

C'mon guys,is not just what you need to play,is what you like to play or try.Is like a game.Experiment with your instrument and have fun.Thats the true reasson for playing an musical instrument,have fun.

[Guest ixlramp]

On 29/11/2018 at 20:08, Hellzero said:

GHS has a 70~140 set that will do the job

No that's for all-fourths not a drop tuning, so the Ab will be undertensioned. I tuned to A for a while on 35", a D'Addario .145 only just had enough tension. I found roughly 30lbs was a minimum for big gauges. D'Addario sell a single .160 which will be about right for Ab. You could possibly try .145 or .150 also if you play it carefully but the tension may be too low and the tone may suffer. Make sure it's taperwound and top-load the string.

On 29/11/2018 at 20:08, Hellzero said:

do you have the amp and speakers able to go that low, which must be at least 1000 Watts and the speaker going down to 26 Hz (fundamental of Ab - 1) if you want to hear your note clearly... Otherwise, you'll hear the first or even second harmonic which is enough for your brain to recreate the fundamental but the sound will be muddy, for sure.

Sub-B tunings always bring out a huge amount of common misconceptions on bass forums.

It's completely unimportant to reproduce the fundamental, it's so low it's not of much audible use anyway and would require special amplification and lots of power. A low B has a fundamental of 31Hz, most amplification doesn't reproduce this but it still sounds good.

Reproducing the fundamental is absolutely not required to hear your note clearly, you will hear the higher harmonics which contain far more of the tone. For a low bass string the fundamental has little amplitude relative to the 2nd harmonic.

The 2nd harmonic of Ab is 52Hz which any normal amplification will reproduce. However it may be useful to use a high pass filter to remove the fundamental of the lowest notes to stop it causing problems.

On 01/12/2018 at 10:44, danny-79 said:

The future project the guitars are both in Drop Ab. That to me is far too much, would you even hear it even if you had an amp that could reproduce it ?

26Hz is audible yes but that's the fundamental so it's a mistake to focus on that, the harmonics will be very audible.

On 03/12/2018 at 13:25, cheddatom said:

I'm pretty sure our human ears are incapable of hearing 26Hz anyway

The widely known lower limit is around 20Hz for a sine wave (no harmonics). But see above, don't focus on the fundamental.

[Guest ixlramp]

On 12/12/2018 at 11:16, danny-79 said:

Its just silly stupid low and I’m not willing to punish my basses setting them up to accommodate 

Nah, Ab really isn't low at all. Several big string companies sell F# strings or F#BEA sets. Warwick sells a bass tuned F#BEA. F# is mainstream now. Kalium sell non-custom strings up to .266 for the F#, C# and G# below B. F# is nowhere near the edge of the envelope.

In no way do you need to punish a bass to tune to Ab, all you need is to file the nut wider and buy the right gauges.

16 hours ago, Saved said:

The bad thing with down tuned basses,is that there is no definition on the note you playing

Nope, it's darker yes but Ab isn't particularly low and note definition is very possible.

[Guest ixlramp]

This video has basses in drop Ab comparing undertensioned smaller gauges and bigger gauges from Kalium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNvl_agBqXI

This video has Kalium strings tuned to G standard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDqEV2pYuaA

Lowest notes are clear, defined and sound good.

[Saved]

6 hours ago, ixlramp said:

Nah, Ab really isn't low at all. Several big string companies sell F# strings or F#BEA sets. Warwick sells a bass tuned F#BEA. F# is mainstream now. Kalium sell non-custom strings up to .266 for the F#, C# and G# below B. F# is nowhere near the edge of the envelope.

In no way do you need to punish a bass to tune to Ab, all you need is to file the nut wider and buy the right gauges.

Nope, it's darker yes but Ab isn't particularly low and note definition is very possible.

I think we are saying the same thing with other words.

Lower tuning means bigger string gauge.Bigger string gauge means darker sound.Darker sound means less harmonic content.Less harmonic means less note definition.

Of course,there are more things that have to do with this,as scale,electronics,pickups,pickup position,how is the string winded (how many wraps it has) string material,is it flat wound or round wound etc.

For example,my 40" scale p-bass with 19 frets and a dimarzio dp145 right after the fretboard wired in series and dp127 wired in series,and they are wired together in series with a 250K tone pot and 0.168μF capacitor,tuned F#BEA with heavy strings (the B is .135 while kalium quake has it .118) and the sound is darker than dark.When you hear it,you change your opinion about how a bass should sound.But the definition..ok,there are basses out there with better definition.The same bass has a piezo bridge.If you hear it from the piezo (same strings,setup)the definition is huge.You need to turn of the mid and treble knobs in the amp to make it sound like a bass

[danny-79]

20 hours ago, ixlramp said:

This video has basses in drop Ab comparing undertensioned smaller gauges and bigger gauges from Kalium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNvl_agBqXI

This video has Kalium strings tuned to G standard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDqEV2pYuaA

Lowest notes are clear, defined and sound good.

Cheers dude vids are very cool. In my theoretical view anything lower than B and you are definitely going to need a longer scale than the standard 34. But the videos sound a lot better than I thought they would sound (sounds like a good enough excuse to get another bass 😜) it’s all new to me, D standard and BEAD is the lowest I’ve ever gotten 

[Saved]

If you have a longer scale but a cab thats not good,its big problem.

What i have learned all these years is,the cab is more important that the bass guitar if you are looking for "huge" lows.

I have tune my vig cobra select 5 in F#BEAD and the sound was very impresive (my cab is a fearful 15-6) and this is a comon 34" scale cheap bass

[danny-79]

7 hours ago, Saved said:

(my cab is a fearful 15-6) 

Is that 6x15inch speakers? 

Excuse me being thick. 

I use 1x15 & 4x10 btw

[Saved]

Its a low pass 15" + high pass 6"

There are many good cabs out there.My next target is a BFM omni 15 but i will not rest before i will try a low passed 18".The accougroove el wapo grande (21") will be there only in my wildest dreams 

[Guest ixlramp]

Hi Saved, for some reason i forgot who you were until just now =)

Indeed i think we generally agree, i just think 'no definition' is misleading, 'less definition' is correct of course.

[Saved]

The "no definition" is my mistake.Sure there will be definition in each note,otherwise all the notes should sound the same.So i have to apologies for this misunderstanding.What i am saying is that there will be less definition.And this is exactly what are you saying

[pete.young]

On 01/12/2018 at 10:44, danny-79 said:

The future project the guitars are both in Drop Ab. 

Crazy stuff. Why do they even need a bass player?

How about using a decent octaver? Should be possible to find something that will track down to the 4th fret on a normal 'E' string.

[Saved]

1 hour ago, pete.young said:

Crazy stuff. Why do they even need a bass player?

THERE IS ALWAYS NEED FOR A BASS PLAYER

BAAASSSSSSAAAAAAAWWWWWW!!!!!

[John T]

On 12/12/2018 at 10:16, Wolverinebass said:

I'd not go lighter than 145 or 150. That's stupidly low. 

This is kind of endemic these days. It's funny how bands that are still considered "heavy" have managed it without drop tuning to Z flat. Sabbath were generally C#, Tool mostly drop D. I could go on. As someone who has 4 string basses that I'm not going to replace the nut on just to detune to wet fart territory, I make a rule that if I can't do it with DR Droptune strings or a Digitech Drop pedal ( below C# is the limit) then I'm not interested at all.

Opeth manage with standard tuning and drop D.

[danny-79]

12 hours ago, John T said:

Opeth manage with standard tuning and drop D.

Yup. Most bands do hence the question, why would you even want to go that low even if it’s possible 

[John T]

Absolutely.....Surely standard tuning on a 5 string or drop D/C on a 4 is low enough. Well for me it is.....but each to their own.

[danny-79]

5 minutes ago, John T said:

Absolutely.....Surely standard tuning on a 5 string or drop D/C on a 4 is low enough. Well for me it is.....but each to their own.

Totally agree. Long turned the job down. I play E standard in a cover band and Eb in an original band. The lowest I’ve ever need to go had been D standard but that was just to do with vocals. I’ve tuned BEAD a few times for various projects. Can’t think of anything else I’d ever need 

[John T]

Love Eb, Alice in Chains domain, awesome!

I like D standard and have tried it a few times but as i use a detuner on my Berg effectively giving me two basses in one, standard 440 and drop D. I would need to dedicate another bass solely to achieve D standard as i like to set up an instrument for a particular tuning and leave it alone. I simply don't have enough basses!

[danny-79]

1 hour ago, John T said:

i like to set up an instrument for a particular tuning and leave it alone. I simply don't have enough basses!

Totally agree with you there. My StingRay,s are Eb and my Jazz is 440E  (acoustic goes between the two, Eb as it is at min)

and you can never have enough basses 😜

Edited December 18, 2018 by danny-79