Odd question about Mustang string tension.

[NJE]

I went into PMT today to try and convince myself I don’t want/need/like mustang basses. Sadly it didn’t work too well and I could be in trouble when finances recover.

Anyway for the second time, I was struck by how tight the strings were, the tension was really high, not just more than I thought it would be, but almost uncomfortably tight to play. It was properly tuned and I am pretty sure it was wearing original strings.

I was always under the illusion the short scales would have nice soft wobbly string tension and be easy on the plucking hand but this was just like playing my Stingray.

Is something going wrong here or was I deluded about the feel of a short scale all along? I know it’s hard to comment without playing I’m just interested in peoples thoughts and experiences.

[naxos10]

My short scale basses have a reasonably tight feel but it's not massive over a 34" scale. A different choice of strings can change the feel, have a chat with Newtone strings see if they can do something for you or if you get the Mustang and its around 30" scale I could lend you a set to try the difference.

[grandad]

I have only MS and SS instruments all 5 with flats. The tension varies with string make but none feel overly tight/stiff. My Mustang has the La Bella Mustang through-body set and the tension is fine, not sloppy, not too tight. Some Mustangs e.g. the PJ are not through-body though. There is a comparison chart somewhere on the web but I can't remember where.

[Osiris]

My Mustang P/J still wears the stock (presumably Fender?) strings that came with it when I bought it new in the summer. They feel quite loose but in a good way, not too stiff and easy to bend, but very definitely different to what you have experienced. I've not played another Mustang to compare the feel and tension so I don't know if mine is 'normal' for a Mustang or not. As @naxos10 and @grandad have said, changing the strings will affect the tension. The strings on mine appear to be standard scale strings as the point where the string tapers is wrapped around the tuning peg and not between the nut and tuning peg as you'd expect, so this could possibly be why they have such a loose feel. I really like the sound and the feel as they are and have no immediate plans to change them but I'll report back as and when I do. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Osiris

[NJE]

That’s really interesting, thanks for the replies.

I pondered on it last night and wondered whether it was something to do with my right hand position. It was a PJ mustang and without thinking I automatically anchored my thumb on the bridge pickup which is very close to the bridge. This could have effected how I perceived the overall tension.

I do still remember the strings feeling very stiff under my fretting hand and it was hard to fret despite a reasonable action. 

I think there was definitively something not right with the tension so I think I need to try another one somewhere else to make sure 😄

[martthebass]

Both of mine have lower string tensions than my long scales - took me a while to get used to them.  Not sure what are on the Mikey Way - (D'addarios?) but its hybrid slinkys on the CIJ reissue.  Pretty sure they are 40 - 100s in each case.

[martthebass]

Not sure if it makes a difference if you are body through stringing or not Nathan - both of mine are strung through the body?

[NJE]

It was a non string through Mexican PJ mustang with factory Fender strings (I can’t imagibe the shop bothered changing them).

Like everyone has said, there should be some reduction in tension over a “normal” scale bass, but there didn’t appear to be any, in fact it felt harder under hand, very very strange. I wonder if someone had accidentally tuned them up an octave, is that even physically possible without breaking the strings or the bass?

I need to try one again in an environment where I am not being nicely pressured. PMT are very friendly and accommodating but they go straight in with the finance, pay next year when you have been playing for 30 seconds.

[kristo]

When I first put Labella Flats on my Japanese Mustang they felt really tight, and the action was high. When I got it set up with a lower action by a tech the Labella's felt much looser and more playable.

[Osiris]

2 hours ago, NJE said:

I pondered on it last night and wondered whether it was something to do with my right hand position. It was a PJ mustang and without thinking I automatically anchored my thumb on the bridge pickup which is very close to the bridge. This could have effected how I perceived the overall tension.

I do still remember the strings feeling very stiff under my fretting hand and it was hard to fret despite a reasonable action. 

That could explain it. I tend to either hook my thumb over the P pup or increasingly lately I find myself using the floating thumb technique but still playing between the 2 pups as though my thumb was still anchored on the P. 

Forgot to mention that I also have an Ibanez Talman short scale that is fitted with D'Addario 50-105 gauge short scale strings. There is noticeably more tension in the strings on that than there is with Mustang. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Osiris

[EssentialTension]

General rule number one: all other things being equal, a 30" scale bass will be lower tension than a 34" scale bass (i.e. if at same pitch, and same string mass per unit length).

But, general rule number two: all other things being equal, the shorter the string you are plucking the less compliant it will be - especially if you get nearer to the bridge - even though tension on a string remains the same all along its length.

Hence, a 30" scale bass might be lower tension than the 34" scale yet be experienced as less compliant.

 

 

 

[naxos10]

Good summation +1.

[NJE]

20 hours ago, EssentialTension said:

General rule number one: all other things being equal, a 30" scale bass will be lower tension than a 34" scale bass (i.e. if at same pitch, and same string mass per unit length).

But, general rule number two: all other things being equal, the shorter the string you are plucking the less compliant it will be - especially if you get nearer to the bridge - even though tension on a string remains the same all along its length.

Hence, a 30" scale bass might be lower tension than the 34" scale yet be experienced as less compliant.

 

 

 

That just blew my mind with sound and concise logic, brilliant explanation, it makes a lot of sense. ⭐️

[EssentialTension]

On 05/12/2018 at 11:12, NJE said:

 ⭐️

Thank you.

But I expect someone will be along soon to explain why I am wrong.

[martthebass]

1 hour ago, EssentialTension said:

Thank you.

But I expect someone will be along soon to explain why I am wrong.

You’re totally wrong, wronger than the wrongest wrong thing. I won’t justify why, you just are.

Will that do?

Edited December 6, 2018 by martthebass

[EssentialTension]

Just now, martthebass said:

You’re totally wrong, wronger than the wrongest wrong thing. I won’t justify why, you just are.

Will that do?

Thanks Mart, I feel better now.

[mcnach]

On 03/12/2018 at 21:20, NJE said:

I went into PMT today to try and convince myself I don’t want/need/like mustang basses. Sadly it didn’t work too well and I could be in trouble when finances recover.

Anyway for the second time, I was struck by how tight the strings were, the tension was really high, not just more than I thought it would be, but almost uncomfortably tight to play. It was properly tuned and I am pretty sure it was wearing original strings.

I was always under the illusion the short scales would have nice soft wobbly string tension and be easy on the plucking hand but this was just like playing my Stingray.

Is something going wrong here or was I deluded about the feel of a short scale all along? I know it’s hard to comment without playing I’m just interested in peoples thoughts and experiences.

 

It will depend entirely on the setup of that particular instrument and the strings on it. 

Think of electric guitars, 24-25" scale. They can be super soft, or really tight. 

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

On 03/12/2018 at 21:20, NJE said:

I went into PMT today to try and convince myself I don’t want/need/like mustang basses. Sadly it didn’t work too well and I could be in trouble when finances recover.

Anyway for the second time, I was struck by how tight the strings were, the tension was really high, not just more than I thought it would be, but almost uncomfortably tight to play. It was properly tuned and I am pretty sure it was wearing original strings.

I was always under the illusion the short scales would have nice soft wobbly string tension and be easy on the plucking hand but this was just like playing my Stingray.

Is something going wrong here or was I deluded about the feel of a short scale all along? I know it’s hard to comment without playing I’m just interested in peoples thoughts and experiences.

Was it by any chance PMT Bristol, a white Mustang with a broken pickup selector switch?  I played that one a week or so ago and for me it felt like the nut needed to be cut lower, and it needed less relief in the neck, both of which might contribute to the feeling of the fretting hand.

[BreadBin]

On 06/12/2018 at 19:03, EssentialTension said:

Thank you.

But I expect someone will be along soon to explain why I am wrong.

Who's going to argue with you of all people about string tension, with that username? 

[bassbiscuits]

On 03/12/2018 at 21:20, NJE said:

I went into PMT today to try and convince myself I don’t want/need/like mustang basses. Sadly it didn’t work too well and I could be in trouble when finances recover.

Anyway for the second time, I was struck by how tight the strings were, the tension was really high, not just more than I thought it would be, but almost uncomfortably tight to play. It was properly tuned and I am pretty sure it was wearing original strings.

I was always under the illusion the short scales would have nice soft wobbly string tension and be easy on the plucking hand but this was just like playing my Stingray.

Is something going wrong here or was I deluded about the feel of a short scale all along? I know it’s hard to comment without playing I’m just interested in peoples thoughts and experiences.

To echo the other posts here, the string tension should normally feel lower on short scales than on long scales.

I've got a 34" precision, and a 30" mustang, both fitted with La Bella flatwounds (both sets are 43-104 gauge) and the Mustang strings feel significantly more bendy than the Precision.

Then again, both basses are nicely set up too which helps.

Well done on your purchase tho - Mustangs are brilliant little basses.

[Twincam]

As a previous poster said a better setup lowers string tension. I'm not sure of all the science behind it. 

When fretting your not stretching the string down as much. And I have a theory that the higher or lower the saddle height moves the tension break point very slightly.

And normally shop instruments are setup terrible! Pet hate of mine. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Twincam

[EssentialTension]

3 minutes ago, Twincam said:

As a previous poster said a better setup lowers string tension. I'm not sure of all the science behind it. 

When fretting your not stretching the string down as much. And I have a theory that the higher or lower the saddle height moves the tension break point very slightly.

And normally shop instruments are setup terrible! Pet hate of mine. 

I think you are talking about compliance not tension ... some explanation of the science below, if anyone is interested:

https://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/tension.htm

https://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm

 

 

[Twincam]

1 hour ago, EssentialTension said:

I think you are talking about compliance not tension ... some explanation of the science below, if anyone is interested:

https://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/tension.htm

https://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm

 

 

I will give those a read.

But my thoughts are, the higher or lower the saddle the break point angle changes and the tension of the string at a given point is shifted back and forth somewhat. 

[Guest ixlramp]

On 10/12/2018 at 14:39, Twincam said:

As a previous poster said a better setup lowers string tension

No, actual scientific tension is unchanged, it only lowers 'perceived tension'.

EssentialTension is correct in that for a particular set of gauges, a shorter scale lowers tension (actual scientific tension, not perceived tension or 'feel'). However a shorter scale will make a particular tension feel tighter because the string anchoring endpoints are closer together. However what you experienced may be due to something else.

On 04/12/2018 at 09:19, Osiris said:

The strings on mine appear to be standard scale strings as the point where the string tapers is wrapped around the tuning peg and not between the nut and tuning peg as you'd expect, so this could possibly be why they have such a loose feel.

No that won't change tension or perceived tension.

Through-body stringing may slightly increase perceived tension.

[EssentialTension]

1 hour ago, ixlramp said:

No, actual scientific tension is unchanged, it only lowers 'perceived tension'.

EssentialTension is correct in that for a particular set of gauges, a shorter scale lowers tension (actual scientific tension, not perceived tension or 'feel'). However a shorter scale will make a particular tension feel tighter because the string anchoring endpoints are closer together.

Sorry to be pedantic, although the point you intend is correct, it's not 'gauge' as such that matters but 'mass per unit length of string'. Two strings of the same gauge can be of different 'mass per unit length' if they are constructed differently. And so not all, for example, 45-65-85-105 sets necessarily have the same tension because they are constructed in different ways.