Imposter Sydrome

[martthebass]

17 hours ago, ianrendall said:

Absolutely agree. Other cliquey musicians on the other hand....felt I was getting sneered at because I wasn’t the usual player. Uncomfortable. 

Nothing I hate more than playing those cliquey pubs where the audience is half full of other musicians looking for fault.  Fortunately the band I'm in now is Fun/Party style and doesn't attract that clientele.  

[discreet]

21 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

There will always be better musicians than yourself somewhere, if you look hard enough.

I don't bother looking hard enough. I prefer delusion.

[oldslapper]

@PaulS

Good luck mate, you'll smash it! 😎

[shoulderpet]

On 06/12/2018 at 15:19, Happy Jack said:

I started in live music by playing at one of the better jams in West London (the Drayton Arms, Ealing, formerly the King's Head, Acton jam). 

Quite literally everybody in the room was a better musician than me, and the great majority (including the guitarists) were better bass players than me.

This pretty much describes me , I don't let it get me down though, im competent enough to get through most situations just not what you would call a great musician

[josie]

On 06/12/2018 at 15:19, Happy Jack said:

I started in live music by playing at one of the better jams in West London (the Drayton Arms, Ealing, formerly the King's Head, Acton jam). 

Quite literally everybody in the room was a better musician than me, and the great majority (including the guitarists) were better bass players than me.

So? You have to start somewhere. If I could get in a time machine and go back those years - taking my bass with me, natch - there would still be plenty of better musicians there.

There will always be better musicians than yourself somewhere, if you look hard enough. So stop looking and enjoy what you do. 

This.

When I started, I was the worst musician in the room, but - I was a musician! Our om community was truly appreciative of the people who came every week just to listen, but as soon as I crossed that line it became completely different. 

I'm usually still the worst musician in the room, but that's because I keep pushing myself, and trying to play with better musicians, because it's the only way I'll get better myself. 

Many years ago a sprinter who came last in the Olympic 100m final was asked how he felt about coming last. His answer: "Being the 8th fastest man in the world ain't bad." 

 

 

[Lfalex v1.1]

On 06/12/2018 at 21:19, fleabag said:

I dont do deps, ever.

No-one's ever asked me.

I guess there's at least one reason out of a possible four that causes this in each case.

[T-Bay]

I fully appreciate I am the least musically talented person in our band. I am also the hardest working when it comes to practice. I am never the least prepared...... pluses and minuses.......

[dave_bass5]

On 06/12/2018 at 13:58, TimR said:

Been in the news a bit this week following Michelle Obama’s speech. 

How many of you guys have been in this situation?

I did a dep gig on Saturday night. Was sent the set list, had a brief look through it, met the guitarist and ran through a few numbers. Didn’t seem anything too complex. 

Turned up to the gig unloaded and set up and then realised I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. Not practiced any of the tunes at home, didn’t know the structure to half the tunes, no ideas of intros or endings. I was screwed. 

Anyway, felt my way through the gig by using my eyes and ears and smiling a lot. 

The band thought I was great, the audience thought we were great. We got paid and the band leader was asked for cards. 

I suppose really that’s what musicians do when they play properly and all this endless rehearsals and preparation with semi-pro bands is mainly just to stoke the singer/guitarists ego. 

Quite honestly I’d prefer to dep all gigs. Keeps it fresh and reminds me of what a real musician is. 

Ive been there many times. Although I always do as much home work as possible, and get to know the songs as well as i can, its hard to predict how each band interprets songs live. A covers band i used to dep with regulary used to change things all the time, so yes, ears and eyes were just as important as knowing the songs. in fact I’d go as far as to say i was the only one that did know how the songs were supposed to go. All good fun though  and i too preferred to do this over playing with my own band. 

Saying all that, we recorded all the gigs, and although we always went down well and had a great time, on listening back we would sometimes wonder how we got away with things. 

[gjones]

On 06/12/2018 at 13:58, TimR said:

Been in the news a bit this week following Michelle Obama’s speech. 

How many of you guys have been in this situation?

I did a dep gig on Saturday night. Was sent the set list, had a brief look through it, met the guitarist and ran through a few numbers. Didn’t seem anything too complex. 

Turned up to the gig unloaded and set up and then realised I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. Not practiced any of the tunes at home, didn’t know the structure to half the tunes, no ideas of intros or endings. I was screwed. 

Anyway, felt my way through the gig by using my eyes and ears and smiling a lot. 

The band thought I was great, the audience thought we were great. We got paid and the band leader was asked for cards. 

I suppose really that’s what musicians do when they play properly and all this endless rehearsals and preparation with semi-pro bands is mainly just to stoke the singer/guitarists ego. 

Quite honestly I’d prefer to dep all gigs. Keeps it fresh and reminds me of what a real musician is. 

I'm the opposite. If I'm asked to do a dep gig I always do a lot of preparation beforehand. 

The last major dep I played, I had to learn 34 songs in 2 weeks. I made up cheat sheets for them all, just in case they were needed. In the end the band only played about 20 of them. 

Sometimes I'm better prepared than the bands I occasionally dep with. Sometimes they have to use my cheat sheets

 

 

[oldslapper]

1 hour ago, gjones said:

Sometimes I'm better prepared than the bands I occasionally dep with. Sometimes they have to use my cheat sheets

 

 

This!

It's not an uncommon experience, particularly in originals bands, where even the songwriter forgets arrangements/chords & plays a song not according to the recording that they refered you to beforehand, even playing them incorrectly at consecutive gig's (and not in an "improv" intentional way). 😂

[mikel]

On 06/12/2018 at 13:58, TimR said:

Been in the news a bit this week following Michelle Obama’s speech. 

How many of you guys have been in this situation?

I did a dep gig on Saturday night. Was sent the set list, had a brief look through it, met the guitarist and ran through a few numbers. Didn’t seem anything too complex. 

Turned up to the gig unloaded and set up and then realised I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. Not practiced any of the tunes at home, didn’t know the structure to half the tunes, no ideas of intros or endings. I was screwed. 

Anyway, felt my way through the gig by using my eyes and ears and smiling a lot. 

The band thought I was great, the audience thought we were great. We got paid and the band leader was asked for cards. 

I suppose really that’s what musicians do when they play properly and all this endless rehearsals and preparation with semi-pro bands is mainly just to stoke the singer/guitarists ego. 

Quite honestly I’d prefer to dep all gigs. Keeps it fresh and reminds me of what a real musician is. 

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. We have band practice once a week because we are not pro musicians. We have jobs and families, and have band practice so we can be tighter than a very tight thing and give the audience what they paid for, a decent nights entertainment. Being able to busk your way through a set is not the only measure of a musician. Being prepared to the best of your ability, however limited that ability may be, is the very least I expect from any band mate. I have busked through a gig, as a drummer, and I did not enjoy it as I spent all my time watching the other musicians like a hawk and trying to keep up. So much so the dynamics of the gig completely passed me by.

[ricksterphil]

Mate of mine is into gypsy jazz (he's a guitarist, obvs). He went over to the big festival they have every year in Holland and joined in with some of the workshops. He realises during said workshops he is sitting in with some of the very best gypsy jazz musicians in the world - 1 being Django Reinhardt's grandson! Later he was due to be on stage for a group performance - playing rhythm guitar (which in gypsy jazz is no calkwalk), but ends up sitting at the front! Ok he thinks, I'll keep my head down and just concentrate on my rhythm work. During the performance all the top guys (remember, these are the best in the world) take turns to solo. He is sat next to Django's grandson who, after finishing ripping out a blinding solo (and if you now anything about gypsy jazz you'll know that everything is played at at least 90 mph) he turns to my mate Andy, (for that is his name) and indicates it's his turn...to take a solo! My mate did his best and 'got through it' as he said. The next day, he's sitting playing in another workshop when the aforementioned Django's grandson turns up with some of the other top performers, joins in with the music and everyone takes a turn soloing, my mate included, not quite so nervous this time and felt he made a better account of himself compared to the previous evenings performance.  When the workshop finishes my mate then recounts how nervous he was at the previous evenings show and how he felt like an imposter. The reply of Django's grandson and all the other top players was to tell him that it matters not what you play, but the fact that you do and that everyone has to start somewhere. They were so encouraging and supporting he's booked to go again this year.

[TimR]

3 hours ago, mikel said:

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. We have band practice once a week because we are not pro musicians. We have jobs and families, and have band practice so we can be tighter than a very tight thing and give the audience what they paid for, a decent nights entertainment. Being able to busk your way through a set is not the only measure of a musician. Being prepared to the best of your ability, however limited that ability may be, is the very least I expect from any band mate. I have busked through a gig, as a drummer, and I did not enjoy it as I spent all my time watching the other musicians like a hawk and trying to keep up. So much so the dynamics of the gig completely passed me by.

I think you maybe have completely missed the point of my post. 

It’s the point where you are playing with other musicians to a high standard with very little preparation (sometimes no prep). And you think how the hell did I get here, you question your ability, and you are expecting to be exposed at any minute. Which is total nonsense, because you have prepared, you’ve been playing for years and been in the same situation more times than you can remember and you’re not a fraud at all. 

It’s certainly not ‘busking’ through the set. You need good musical skills and experience of playing with lots of different musicians to be able to dep competently.

The point of Imposter Syndrome is it’s baseless, you’re not an imposter, you deserve to be there and you should be there, it’s just your own psychology undermining yourself. 

It could just as easily happen to you after months of rehearsals getting tight and playing many gigs and finding yourself on stage in front of tens of thousands of people at a festival.

 

[mikel]

I am aware of what "Impostor syndrome" Is. It was the highlighted lines of your OP I took issue with. The semi-pro's only rehearsing to stoke someones ego, or the Deping keeps it fresh and reminds me of what a "Real" musician is.

[yorks5stringer]

Interesting debate around how faithful to the original you need to be.

One of the bands I play with do an Open Mic where we invite musicians we know in advance to play, and we'll accompany them as well as doing stuff ourselves. It's often me who points out at rehearsal some of the notes/keys/ rhythms that others have missed in their learning of the tune but equally it has been said back that we can develop our own version, different to the original too.

[TimR]

3 hours ago, mikel said:

I am aware of what "Impostor syndrome" Is. It was the highlighted lines of your OP I took issue with. The semi-pro's only rehearsing to stoke someones ego, or the Deping keeps it fresh and reminds me of what a "Real" musician is.

Well, copying songs note for note and playing songs exactly as you have rehearsed hundreds of times is simply playing your instrument using muscle memory. It’s the musical equivalent of riding your bike to work. 

It’s like the difference between a carpenter and someone who can fit a kitchen. 

 ‘Real’ probably isn’t the right word but certainly there’s a big difference. This thread is evidence of that from replies. 

[mikel]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

Well, copying songs note for note and playing songs exactly as you have rehearsed hundreds of times is simply playing your instrument using muscle memory. It’s the musical equivalent of riding your bike to work. 

It’s like the difference between a carpenter and someone who can fit a kitchen. 

 ‘Real’ probably isn’t the right word but certainly there’s a big difference. This thread is evidence of that from replies. 

Its not evidence of anything, it's opinions. A musician is a musician, there is no right or wrong way and just because semi pro bands rehearse does not mean they are pandering to someones ego. Have respect for fellow musicians and lower your ego.

[josie]

As per the op, it's "What the h3ll am I doing here playing with these awesome musicians?" 

Just over a year ago I got to play the jam at Carlisle Blues Festival, with Matt Long from Catfish - imho by far the best young blues-rock guitar player in the UK  - on lead guitar, and Connie Lush and Kaz Hawkins - two of the very best UK female blues singers, and both total thunderstorms of voice and personality. 

Utterly intimidated. Connie physically dragged me from my safe space back in a corner to centre front stage and I almost totally lost it. Matt dragged me back and muttered the chords into my ear until I got the groove back. 

Ok, so this might not be exactly as per the op. I wasn't pretending to be anything I wasn't, it was terrifying at the time and exhilarating in hindsight. Totally out of my depth but in context that was ok. 

Perhaps ironically, Impostor Syndrome kicks in much more when I play a jam with musicians who aren't that much better than I am. Like I might be expected to be at their level, whereas with those guys I clearly couldn't, so no expectations. 

[Teebs]

On 12/07/2018 at 01:36, Dad3353 said:

S'easy..! You capo, too..! 

 @Dad3353Bloody drummers

[Teebs]

On 12/06/2018 at 13:58, TimR said:

Been in the news a bit this week following Michelle Obama’s speech. 

How many of you guys have been in this situation?

I did a dep gig on Saturday night. Was sent the set list, had a brief look through it, met the guitarist and ran through a few numbers. Didn’t seem anything too complex. 

Turned up to the gig unloaded and set up and then realised I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. Not practiced any of the tunes at home, didn’t know the structure to half the tunes, no ideas of intros or endings. I was screwed. 

Anyway, felt my way through the gig by using my eyes and ears and smiling a lot. 

The band thought I was great, the audience thought we were great. We got paid and the band leader was asked for cards. 

I suppose really that’s what musicians do when they play properly and all this endless rehearsals and preparation with semi-pro bands is mainly just to stoke the singer/guitarists ego. 

Quite honestly I’d prefer to dep all gigs. Keeps it fresh and reminds me of what a real musician is. 

Sounds like you aced it though. Live music is entertainment, and that's what you delivered. Nice one

[Teebs]

*Live music is entertainment...unless it's jazz

[josie]

4 minutes ago, Teebs said:

*Live music is entertainment...unless it's jazz

Jazz I only get live - apart from a few easy standards, it only really works for me live with an appreciative audience. Same is true of other genres I've been privileged to hear in their native habitats, such as Canarian secessionist folk music. (Canarian acoustic reggae is something else again - I was lucky enough to see this guy live, and play this often:  https://abelcordovez.bandcamp.com/album/tilelli 

[skankdelvar]

Only time I've ever depped it was by accident.

Nearly 40 years ago I'm back from college for the summer, been playing guitar for about a year and I've put it around I'm looking for a punk band. I get a call from this bass player says he's looking to put something together, do I want to hook up and try some stuff, he's got a room booked upstairs in a pub Tuesday evening. Sure says I.

Tip up at this pub, hump my gear upstairs to find about 20 people sitting around at tables, drum kit in the corner and a stand-up bass. Little old bloke scurries over to me, put your amp over there next to the kit, we'll start with some standards.

Standards? WTF is going on?

Little bloke gets out his fake book and calls some jazz standard in something like Db (a key with which I am entirely unacquainted) and off they go. I noodle some single note stuff in the wrong key and what seems like five years later it ends. Little old bloke's giving me murderous looks. He calls another song I've never heard of. Same thing happens, ghastly row, punters are looking bewildered, the drummer's looking nervous.

I suddenly realise that I am a total novice playing guitar at a jazz gig and I've never listened to jazz in my life let alone played it. We make it to half-time and little old bloke storms over and gives me a complete bollocking, says his mate George told him I was a great player, what's going on? 

'Who's George?' says I. 'I don't know any George'.

'George the Dixieland trumpet player' says he.

'Never heard of him,' says I. 

'Well, there must be some mistake' says little old bloke.

'Clearly,' says I. He decides he doesn't need my services for the second set, they'll play it as a duo so I off I trudge, feeling a bit disheartened.

To this day I have no idea what happened to bring about this bizarre disaster and I've never played Jazz again.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by skankdelvar

[lurksalot]

14 hours ago, ricksterphil said:

The reply of Django's grandson and all the other top players was to tell him that it matters not what you play, but the fact that you do ..........

I think Django’s grandson has pretty much nailed a definition of Jazz 

[TimR]

9 hours ago, mikel said:

Its not evidence of anything, it's opinions. A musician is a musician, there is no right or wrong way and just because semi pro bands rehearse does not mean they are pandering to someones ego. Have respect for fellow musicians and lower your ego.

I have no idea whatsoever what your point is. 

Where have I said that semi pro bands rehearse only to pander to someone’s ego?

Endless rehearsals and preparation when the band is already tight and have learned all the tunes is completely pointless musically.