Front lighting

[steve-bbb]

Tell me your band solutions for simple front lighting please! Trying to avoid the old conundrum of everything being back or side lit

ta muchly 😁

[Mudpup]

See here....

 

[NHM]

The reason people use back and side lighting is because it is more atmospheric. Front lighting tends to kill a 'modelled' look - think how flash-lit photos flatten pictures: front lighting has a similar effect. Also, there are the practicalities to think of - lighting from the front tends to mean lights placed on stands where the public are, which means hot things with mains power going in a space where you can't control safety and drinks/liquids prevail.

Having said that, all side and back means you can't see faces very clearly and unless your band is wild and wacky you probably want to be able to engage with the audience through your illuminated faces for seeing expression during songs and chit-chat between numbers. Not many bands want the lead singer either half-face in red and half-face in blue, or (even worse) the face/ eyes in shadow.

So, what to do? Well, footlights are a good solution - they complement side and back lighting really well by adding atmosphere whilst lighting the front of the face. Also, they are near you rather than in the audience so are much safer. If you are 'big time' and have a followspot for the lead singer, then these provide the perfect solution for 'second status' lighting - eg guitars and bass. Also, footlights are brilliant on equipment that sparkles, eg drums, mic stands, so they give the whole stage a classy look. Also, if you can get some sidelighting downstage of your mic line - say lightweight gear screwed on the top of the PA, as long as the light gets into both  of the singers eye sockets, then it is job done.

[steve-bbb]

16 minutes ago, NHM said:

The reason people use back and side lighting is because it is more atmospheric. Front lighting tends to kill a 'modelled' look - think how flash-lit photos flatten pictures: front lighting has a similar effect. Also, there are the practicalities to think of - lighting from the front tends to mean lights placed on stands where the public are, which means hot things with mains power going in a space where you can't control safety and drinks/liquids prevail.

Having said that, all side and back means you can't see faces very clearly and unless your band is wild and wacky you probably want to be able to engage with the audience through your illuminated faces for seeing expression during songs and chit-chat between numbers. Not many bands want the lead singer either half-face in red and half-face in blue, or (even worse) the face/ eyes in shadow.

So, what to do? Well, footlights are a good solution - they complement side and back lighting really well by adding atmosphere whilst lighting the front of the face. Also, they are near you rather than in the audience so are much safer. If you are 'big time' and have a followspot for the lead singer, then these provide the perfect solution for 'second status' lighting - eg guitars and bass. Also, footlights are brilliant on equipment that sparkles, eg drums, mic stands, so they give the whole stage a classy look. Also, if you can get some sidelighting downstage of your mic line - say lightweight gear screwed on the top of the PA, as long as the light gets into both  of the singers eye sockets, then it is job done.

yes was thinking of trying to find a clamp to put a par can on the PA stand - we have used led bars on the floor before which also has the added bonus of delineating the boundary between the band and the punters - agreed it  def needs something higher up as side or down light to avoid the 'hammer house of horror' extreme uplighting effect

not thinking of anything extreme frontlighting just options to soften out the whole effect and avoid the extreme backlit/uplit look

[taunton-hobbit]

2 minutes ago, steve-bbb said:

delineating the boundary between the band and the punters

Try barbed wire?

😎

[NHM]

depending on the diameter of your PA stand, a theatre lighting 'hook clamp' might do the trick. the standard size fits scaff (2"?) but there's also a small size available.

[Dad3353]

Depending on the solidity and rigidity of the PA, it's possible to perch a LED projo on top, preferably screwed or bolted on. A lightweight LED bar or PAR36 would do the job. Ideally, one could consider filters, one each side, with a 'warm' side and a 'cool' side, to diminish the 'flattening' effect, and, again, preferably, with differing intensities. S'not easy if there's no perch above the front of stage, so high-up side projos, as far forward as possible, is the way.
Hope this helps. 

[lozkerr]

Sieg Heil!

That thoroughly un-PC expression was how I was taught to do stage lighting back in the day. Now, this was for theatre rather than music, but I'm getting the impression from the OP that an expressively-lit face is crucial. So this is how it's done.

Stand on the stage in the position you want lit. Make a Nazi salute and then turn your arm 45 degrees to the side. You are now pointing at the centre of the light that needs to illuminate the right side of your face. Repeat this gesture with your left hand. You are now pointing at the centre of the light that needs to illuminate the left side of your face. Rinse and repeat for every musician that needs to stand on the front row.

That will give you the number of lanterns that you need mounted in front of you. However, there is some flexibility in the 45 degree rule. You can go from 30 degrees to 60 degrees without affecting the mood, especially in a small venue. @Dad3353, you're bang on about warm and cool. I used to use steel for cool and straw for warm, which gives a nice neutral general cover when both sides are up full. There's no rule about which tone should come from stage left or stage right - rig it as you feel it. It's not a bad idea to watch which way the sun goes down and set warm towards the sunset. But just keep it consistent. Then add washes as the show demands, and mix it as you feel it.

[Dad3353]

+1 for the above ^^. I can't remember the Lee filter numbers I used for this 'warm' and 'cool' lighting (too long ago, and I'm old, so...), but they are very effective. I spent several happy years lighting for a ska/rock/punk group, touring most of France, and that 45° rule was used a lot, by myself and other lighters. Without perched lights there'll have to be some compromise, but a combination of 'as high and far forward as you can' and 'as low and far forward as you can' will do nicely. Try to avoid anything 'straight on', including footlights, though. At worst, totally side-on will work, as long as both sides of the faces are lit, so one (or, better still, an up/down pair...) at each side of the stage will be better than nothing.

[Les]

We bolt our front lighting to the top of the PA speakers, many plastic cabs these days have resessed nuts on top, presume they are for flying them.

Works well and cuts down on stands. 

 

[thepurpleblob]

9 hours ago, Les said:

We bolt our front lighting to the top of the PA speakers, many plastic cabs these days have resessed nuts on top, presume they are for flying them.

Works well and cuts down on stands. 

 

I'm not sure which I like better... that you have Jah Wobble on guitar or that you come from Wigan and actually do wear flat caps 😄 

[lozkerr]

10 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

+1 for the above ^^. I can't remember the Lee filter numbers I used for this 'warm' and 'cool' lighting

117 steel and 103 straw were the colours I used to use for a general cover, to the extent that I'd keep a roll of each in my gig bag, along with electrician's tools, adjustable spanners, gaffer tape, baling wire and fuses, plus 63- and 32 amp sockets with bare tails attached. When you rock up to a village hall and find there's no lighting, the cooker supply is your friend 🙂 

[lozkerr]

I can recommend two good books on the subject, if anyone's interested:

Francis Reid - The Stage Lighting Handbook

Robert Pilbrow - Stage Lighting

If time and money are tight, I'd recommend starting with Reid's book. Both concentrate on theatre rather than bands, but the principles are exactly the same. My editions pre-date the LED and cheap demux era, but the methods of painting with light haven't altered.

[Dad3353]

+1 ^^ I concur with my learned friend. 

[NHM]

the trouble with 103 and 117 is that gel only worked well in 'old fashioned' lamps such as 23s, 123s or Sils - for the younger reader, the days when lanterns weighted a ton, got very hot, consumed loads of £££ of electricity and - their best selling point by far - had tungsten or halogen lamps that simulated 'mini-suns' and thus bore some resemblance to the quality of light we live our lives within.

For all the faults of the old technology, and for all the benefits of discharge and more recently LED, let's face it modern low-energy light sources are crap at colour rendering. The ability to render colour well is the most important parameter for any stage lighting instrument, whether you are lighting drama, dance or music. There's a law* that says the crapper the colour rendering, the better all the other parameters of the lighting unit are likely to be, and visa versa. Unfortunately economics have dictated that cheap to make, cheap to run LED lights have pushed traditional lights into the skip. There's a generation growing up that will never have seen a performance subtly lit by incandescent lamps, and they're all the culturally-poorer for it. Unless garish coloured scenes are actually what people want, but if they've been exposed to nothing else ....

I'm old enough to remember putting a 'surprise pink' (36?) in a follow spot to light Shakin' Stevens, and young enough to have lit displays with fibre optics and leds. As a result I know that progress doesn't necessarily benefit aesthetics where there's money to be made. Rant over! Fade to black.

*I just made up that law (I don't count candles!).

[taunton-hobbit]

While we're doing a lighting thread -  I once met a delightful old boy who did the sparking stuff at the Kings Hall, Herne Bay.

He asked if I'd ever worked in lime(light)?

So there I was, lit with a moving lime follow spot, for both sets - unforgettable!

All a long time ago (1972ish?) - it's had an interior makeover since then..........

😎

 

[lozkerr]

2 hours ago, NHM said:

the trouble with 103 and 117 is that gel only worked well in 'old fashioned' lamps such as 23s, 123s or Sils - for the younger reader, the days when lanterns weighted a ton, got very hot, consumed loads of £££ of electricity and - their best selling point by far - had tungsten or halogen lamps that simulated 'mini-suns' and thus bore some resemblance to the quality of light we live our lives within.

For all the faults of the old technology, and for all the benefits of discharge and more recently LED, let's face it modern low-energy light sources are crap at colour rendering. The ability to render colour well is the most important parameter for any stage lighting instrument, whether you are lighting drama, dance or music. There's a law* that says the crapper the colour rendering, the better all the other parameters of the lighting unit are likely to be, and visa versa. Unfortunately economics have dictated that cheap to make, cheap to run LED lights have pushed traditional lights into the skip. There's a generation growing up that will never have seen a performance subtly lit by incandescent lamps, and they're all the culturally-poorer for it. Unless garish coloured scenes are actually what people want, but if they've been exposed to nothing else ....

I'm old enough to remember putting a 'surprise pink' (36?) in a follow spot to light Shakin' Stevens, and young enough to have lit displays with fibre optics and leds. As a result I know that progress doesn't necessarily benefit aesthetics where there's money to be made. Rant over! Fade to black.

*I just made up that law (I don't count candles!).

This trip down memory lane's made me wish I'd kept my lighting rig, but my partner - now my ex - insisted I got rid of it. Those were exactly the lanterns I had - four Patt 23, eight Patt 123, a Patt 60, eight PAR 56s and a couple of Sils. I had a pair of colour wheels for the Patt 23s, plus an effects unit and three telescopic stands with scaff bars. I had my own desk - after being given some horrendous rubbish by hire companies, I bought a Zero 88 24-way two-preset manual desk and a Betapack with a ten-metre length of Socapex. I'd hire more dimmers when I needed them, but that desk was mine and woe betide anyone laying a finger on it. I never got on with computerised desks - I was taught to take cues to match the performance and occasionally had to alter things on the fly. I had GAS (or maybe that should be LAS) too - I was always on the lookout for half a dozen Patt 750 beamlights. Lovely lanterns - they had far more punch than a PAR can, although they did need constant cleaning to keep the beam well-defined.

I'll have to defer to your experience with LED lights, but I can well believe it. I've noticed lighting seems to be more garish these days. I'd be interested to know how well they fade, if at all - once the voltage across the pn junction of an LED drops below the threshold, out goes the light. How does it work - are the LEDs turned off incrementally, or can they actually fade properly? 

Oh, and according to the Lee swatch book I've kept, surprise pink is 194.

LQ2:  DBO

Edited December 10, 2018 by lozkerr

[NHM]

LEDs don't have the smooth fade out that incandescent did/do.

Patt 750s were terrific lights, double mirrors for a really concentrated beam although hard to balance one against another.

crossfade to reply over 7s

[lozkerr]

I thought that might be the case, sadly. Might not be a problem for a band, but drama's a different matter. I'm almost tempted to get back into it - without want to sound too much bigly, I was pretty good at it back in the day.

Aye, balancing 750s was a bit of a black art. Our studio only had a single-phase supply though, so at a thousand watts a pop, they seriously ate into the juice available for general cover. I used to use them for things that needed stabbing beams of light - a cluster of them for sunbeams in an expressionist show, sometimes a couple to suggest the direction of the sun along with a general cover, a saltire using two at an angle with a blue wash and a fog machine, wartime searchlights and so on. Used sparingly, they were tremendously effective.

Hm, my credit card's itching... just popping over to fleabay...

X-fade --> GC/5

[NHM]

we don't get much call for saltires round these parts, but I've done a few 'sunbeams through the window' with them in my time.

[Roger2611]

I have always liked "foot lighting" the bands I play in, in a Bauhaus, Pete Murphy style, strangely it seemed to annoy the singer and guitarist who constantly wanted to look at his fret board! It makes for really effective lighting though!

I also love up lighting the drums with a couple of lower wattage Par cans shining up through the snare and floor tom, that also looks really effective

[Dad3353]

5 minutes ago, Roger2611 said:

...a couple of lower wattage Par cans shining up through the snare and floor tom...

Ha..! Now let me guess why you chose 'lower wattage'..! 

[NHM]

you don't need much welly from uplights as they hit bits that other light don't reach... 

[dmccombe7]

I have a full LED DMX system that i put together in 2012. The desk is small and compact i think its a Showtec and not too expensive either. The fades are pretty good as far as i can remember. From full power down to a very faint light almost OFF. You can have them fade change between colours at anything from fast to very very slow. They were cheap cans to buy at the time mostly 2nd hand but in great condition. Biggest issue with them is programming the desk and trying to get your head round that DMX thing. The other downside is that the older LED lamps weren't the brightest cans and i think i might invest in some modern cans which are far brighter. Some rectangular flood boards would be worthwhile too. 

I also have the lazer, projectors and DMX smoke machines that can be controlled either from the desk or by a seperate remote control unit. One is front pushing and the other behind the drummer pushes straight up to ceiling and fills stage and then falls downwards onto stage.

Because the LED lamps are lightweight the stands don't require a large footprint and i can usually stand them behind or rear corner of any PA we use.

I have the goalposts at the back where rear lights face down and forward mainly on to the drums. The lazer and 2off projectors are hung from this too. Another 2 projectors at side of drums on floor facing forward and upwards give nice beams thru the fog.

Total maximum power used with everything on is 7A and that includes the smoke machines when heaters are on. Means i can operate the full thing from one socket.

LED's have some advantages too.

I have used the old fashioned systems in 80's of PAR56 type cans and Halogen backlighting with small pencil spots shining thru smoke from smoke machines. Heavy to carry about and hang and very warm to play under plus always the power issue and limiting depending on the gig. A lot of gigs didn't have a 440V supply either. Only the bigger venues and they had their own lighting rigs.

Dave

 

[NHM]

yup, LEDs are ideal for rock n roll, lots of advantages, but are less effective if you want something verging on the naturalistic - for reasons already stated...

It is incredible to think you can run a whole lighting rig off a 13A supply, with watts to spare, when you go down the LED route. In the old days of tungsten, all you could get out of 13A was 6 x 500W spots at any one time, barely enough to light a pub-sized stage, and each one in a single colour with no beam movement.