Musicman Stingrays - Overrated ?

[mouthmw]

On 28/12/2018 at 20:39, RedVee said:

They have corrected the weak g string on the 4's, but they still use the same saddles on the Specials where you cannot get a very low action via the saddles. There are plenty of posts about this on the Internet just Google it.I would have thought that you would have known this. 

Those saddles were used on the Classic models. Hollow saddles which don't allow you to drop the screws as low - which translates into - you can't technically reach the same low action if it's needed, without shimming the neck. I have a 2010 2 band standard model and I don't have the hollow saddles. I'm still very very curious about the 2018 models.. Haven't tried them yet.

And by correcting the weak G - I think it has more to do with the pickup location, it's just physically not in the place where the thinner strings would have more natural low end. What they did though is align the pole pieces so that the strings are centered over them. Perhaps preamp tweaks did something too. In any case, those 2018 models sound tamer in comparison to the older ones.

Edited January 18, 2019 by mouthmw

[mouthmw]

On 28/12/2018 at 21:40, drTStingray said:

The point is, apparently, that it's not possible to have saddle screws protruding through the tops of the saddles for user safety reasons, which seems perfectly reasonable.

Alright.. as much as I'm a fan of Stingrays, this is just incredibly daft. What are we gonna do, poke our hands with the screws that stick out too much? Are we 3 years old?

[drTStingray]

23 minutes ago, mouthmw said:

You're wrong.

From EBMM's FAQ:
" If you have a single pickup bass set the pickup height to 6/32" from the plastic pickup cover to the bottom of the G string. Adjust the bass side of the pickup to be parallel with the pickguard. "

So that's around 4.76 mm from the G string to the pickup cover on the G string side, and you don't drop bass side of the pickup to the pickguard - it has to be parallel with the pickguard which means, the pickup has to be straight. I keep mine slightly slanted towards the G (I'm using Nordy MM4.2 and the original 2 band preamp, I prefer Nordy's stagger to the original pickup's stagger on the pole pieces, plus the pre-eb tonal vibe I'm getting) and I don't really have issues with the G string. It's not a Fender sounding G string, but no issues. I did have to tweak my setup for months and months when I started playing a Stingray, but now I've pretty much perfected it.

I'm glad that you've got a set up you like and works for you but in the interests of accuracy, that is not the info in the EBMM FAQ on bass set up. There are specific heights for the G and E (or B) sides of the pick up from the strings (whilst noting that set up is an individual choice). This is how they come set up when you buy them new.

https://www.music-man.com/faq#category2

[pineweasel]

Eh? That is precisely the info for setting the pickup height in the EBMM FAQ.

[mouthmw]

7 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

I'm glad that you've got a set up you like and works for you but in the interests of accuracy, that is not the info in the EBMM FAQ on bass set up. There are specific heights for the G and E (or B) sides of the pick up from the strings (whilst noting that set up is an individual choice). This is how they come set up when you buy them new.

https://www.music-man.com/faq#category2

I copied that info exactly from the EBMM FAQ, what are you talking about? I'm simply saying that they never said or written anywhere that you have to drop the bass side of the pickup all the way down to the pickguard. That's silly, and couldn't even be universal since different setups have different string heights.

Edited January 18, 2019 by mouthmw

[drTStingray]

6 minutes ago, mouthmw said:

Alright.. as much as I'm a fan of Stingrays, this is just incredibly daft. What are we gonna do, poke our hands with the screws that stick out too much? Are we 3 years old?

You could argue it's because they have our best interests at heart (don't want us to injure ourselves) but the more likely reality is producing something that needlessly exposes people to injury also exposes them to the risk of litigation - something similar happened, I believe, over the mute arrangement in the mid 90s (which they deleted and replaced with hex bolts). Even now since they've been reissued on the Classic and Old Smoothie basses I think there's some sort warning about injuring yourself on them (the edges of the mounts are relatively sharp but don't pose a problem unless you're in the habit of smashing your hand against the bass as part of your playing style - don't laugh but during the early 90s they modified the bridge because one well known player was in the habit of pulling the strings off the bridge, such was the force they exerted....) 

[mouthmw]

Just now, drTStingray said:

don't laugh but during the early 90s they modified the bridge because one well known player was in the habit of pulling the strings off the bridge, such was the force they exerted....)  

Yeah, you mean Flea. He did a good job fixing that bridge too if I'm being honest. The old design was ridiculous...

[drTStingray]

4 minutes ago, mouthmw said:

I copied that info exactly from the EBMM FAQ, what are you talking about? I'm simply saying that they never said or written anywhere that you have to drop the bass side of the pickup all the way down to the pickguard. That's silly, and couldn't even be universal since different setups have different string heights.

There's a measurement for each side (which you didnt say in your post) but as you say, there's nothing said about dropping the pickup cover level with pickguard. 

I read your post as advocating the measurement  on the G side from the FAQ and lowering the E side to the pg which clearly you didn't mean, so apologies. Are you using the E height from the FAQ? 

[No. 8 Wire]

52 minutes ago, mouthmw said:

You're wrong.

From EBMM's FAQ:
" If you have a single pickup bass set the pickup height to 6/32" from the plastic pickup cover to the bottom of the G string. Adjust the bass side of the pickup to be parallel with the pickguard. "

So that's around 4.76 mm from the G string to the pickup cover on the G string side, and you don't drop bass side of the pickup to the pickguard - it has to be parallel with the pickguard which means, the pickup has to be straight. I keep mine slightly slanted towards the G (I'm using Nordy MM4.2 and the original 2 band preamp, I prefer Nordy's stagger to the original pickup's stagger on the pole pieces, plus the pre-eb tonal vibe I'm getting) and I don't really have issues with the G string. It's not a Fender sounding G string, but no issues. I did have to tweak my setup for months and months when I started playing a Stingray, but now I've pretty much perfected it.

I'm happy to be corrected, that's not how I read it when I last set it up.  In fact it works very well for an even string volume though with the bass side at the lowest setting! YMMV etc.  I question how the same setup can apply to all single pickup EBMM basses though (Ray, Bongo, Ray Special, Sterling, etc).  I don't know if that guidance has been changed or I just read it wrong a couple of years ago.  It's definitely very different to the FAQ published online when I bought by EBMM 14 ish years ago. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by No. 8 Wire

[drTStingray]

11 minutes ago, mouthmw said:

Yeah, you mean Flea. He did a good job fixing that bridge too if I'm being honest. The old design was ridiculous...

Yes better (for him they changed the slots in the saddles to make them fit the individual strings thus reducing the possibility of highly charged players pulling them out 😂 - maybe he's a little more delicate these days but you wonder how he gets on with an early Jazz bass) but the earlier bridge was still perfectly functional (and better than the early pre EBs which are extremely difficult to intonate). They changed the string angles at the same time. I suspect the mute issue came from the same source!! 

Edited January 18, 2019 by drTStingray

[mouthmw]

7 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

There's a measurement for each side (which you didnt say in your post) but as you say, there's nothing said about dropping the pickup cover level with pickguard. 

I read your post as advocating the measurement  on the G side from the FAQ and lowering the E side to the pg which clearly you didn't mean, so apologies. Are you using the E height from the FAQ? 

No problem, I was actually quoting No. 8 Wire. He said you'd have to drop the bass side of the pickup down to the pickguard, and keep the G side close. It's all good

My setup height is slightly lower than the guide. My E is around 2 mm on the 12th fret to the bottom of the string. My A is higher, my D is lower than A and my G is a bit lower than my E. I find this type of setup the most comfortable (and have a similar setup on my P bass with flats) and works great with EB Super Slinky strings 45-100. My pickup is slightly slanted towards the G.

Edited January 18, 2019 by mouthmw

[pineweasel]

11 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

There's a measurement for each side (which you didnt say in your post) but as you say, there's nothing said about dropping the pickup cover level with pickguard. 

Where is the measurement for the E? The FAQ only gives 6/32" for the G, and tells you to set the pickup parallel to the pickguard.

The only older guidance I have found was quoted on the EBMM forum, which does give a height spec for each side, placing the G slightly closer:

“While depressing the E string at the last fret, measure the distance from the bottom of that string to the top of the pickup magnet for that string. Adjust for a distance of 4/32 inches. Do the same with the G string but, this time, aim for a distance of 3/32 inches. Final adjustment may have to be made to the G side by ear, so that the volume is even across all strings.”

 

[mouthmw]

Just now, pineweasel said:

Where is the measurement for the E? The FAQ only gives 6/32" for the G, and tells you to set the pickup parallel to the pickguard.

The only older guidance I have found was quoted on the EBMM forum, which does give a height spec for each side, placing the G slightly closer:

“While depressing the E string at the last fret, measure the distance from the bottom of that string to the top of the pickup magnet for that string. Adjust for a distance of 4/32 inches. Do the same with the G string but, this time, aim for a distance of 3/32 inches. Final adjustment may have to be made to the G side by ear, so that the volume is even across all strings.”

 

Yup, that's pretty much it, I remember that older guide as well. I do most of my pickup height setup by ear and feel (can't have it too close to the G string as it won't be comfortable enough to dig in). Slight slant to the G string and I'm good.

[drTStingray]

Yes you're right - I was reading the string bit. 

There did used to be a figure for the E side. 

Ive just checked my two specials (which have pick up heights as delivered) - all of the pick up cases are parallel to the pg. it's also not far off on level my Old Smoothie (never altered it). 

[drTStingray]

Talking of Old Smoothies, I got mine out last night having been inspired by the Phil Mann video from another thread with him playing one - I haven't played any of my other (8) Stingrays since getting the Specials a few months back.

However I was reminded how fabulous this bass is - the action is very low and the bass is so playable - so I'm taking it to a jam session tonight 😊

[RedVee]

On 18/01/2019 at 13:32, mouthmw said:

Those saddles were used on the Classic models. Hollow saddles which don't allow you to drop the screws as low - which translates into - you can't technically reach the same low action if it's needed, without shimming the neck. I have a 2010 2 band standard model and I don't have the hollow saddles. I'm still very very curious about the 2018 models.. Haven't tried them yet.

And by correcting the weak G - I think it has more to do with the pickup location, it's just physically not in the place where the thinner strings would have more natural low end. What they did though is align the pole pieces so that the strings are centered over them. Perhaps preamp tweaks did something too. In any case, those 2018 models sound tamer in comparison to the older ones.

Hey don't get me wrong I love my Classic Stingray and would never sell it, it is just the small niggely things that get on my nerves.

[Chiliwailer]

On 18/01/2019 at 14:45, drTStingray said:

Talking of Old Smoothies, I got mine out last night having been inspired by the Phil Mann video from another thread with him playing one - I haven't played any of my other (8) Stingrays since getting the Specials a few months back.

However I was reminded how fabulous this bass is - the action is very low and the bass is so playable - so I'm taking it to a jam session tonight 😊

Unexpected things are happening at my place. I’m playing my Smoothie pretty much all the time now, and it’s even got rounds on it, which is odd for me. The Special is still a killer bass, but it’s not feeling too special at the moment. 

[Wolverinebass]

How come they don't make a double humbucker neck through? They make a neck through stingray. Just seems like a strange omission.

[mouthmw]

On 22/01/2019 at 22:54, RedVee said:

Hey don't get me wrong I love my Classic Stingray and would never sell it, it is just the small niggely things that get on my nerves.

Yeah, well, if you're getting the action height they way you want it (meaning low enough), it's not a problem. Any other things that get on your nerves on your Classic?
I'd probably prefer a top load stringing instead of body through (I tried body through on a Jazz bass once, and didn't like the perceived increase in string tautness). Slab body I didn't mind on my old USA SUB. I guess weight would be a concern, if it's heavy.

[gpw5150]

I had some trouble with my HH Stingray action.  It was tricky to lower without buzziness and I didn't want to shim the neck like crazy, for a £1.5k bass I figured it should be built to a much higher tolerance. The neck relief measure up fine, the saddles are low, but I simply don't wanna go down the route of shimming.  I have a compromise where it is about 2.5mm from the 12th fret, but still not my ideal.  My old OLP is way lower with a shimmed neck and does not buzz at all.  

Any thoughts on lowering the action any further?

I guess I could use smaller string guages - i use 45/100

[mcnach]

9 hours ago, gpw5150 said:

I had some trouble with my HH Stingray action.  It was tricky to lower without buzziness and I didn't want to shim the neck like crazy, for a £1.5k bass I figured it should be built to a much higher tolerance. The neck relief measure up fine, the saddles are low, but I simply don't wanna go down the route of shimming.  I have a compromise where it is about 2.5mm from the 12th fret, but still not my ideal.  My old OLP is way lower with a shimmed neck and does not buzz at all.  

Any thoughts on lowering the action any further?

I guess I could use smaller string guages - i use 45/100

 

why don't you use a shim if you think it'll allow you to get the action you want?

It's not going to damage the sound,  it's super easy to do, and it's entirely reversible!

[RedVee]

On 23/01/2019 at 07:05, Chiliwailer said:

Unexpected things are happening at my place. I’m playing my Smoothie pretty much all the time now, and it’s even got rounds on it, which is odd for me. The Special is still a killer bass, but it’s not feeling too special at the moment. 

I think you would regret it if you sold that Old Smoothie!

[Chiliwailer]

6 hours ago, RedVee said:

I think you would regret it if you sold that Old Smoothie!

100%  

[chickenjames]

well here's my 0.01p.

I have 4 basses:

EBMM 2010 2EQ 4H, rw neck
USA P 4, maple
MM Sire v7 4 rw
Kala u bass fretless

And it's horses for courses. I play in kilcannon.co.uk - Irish folk. That gets the P and the uke.

And for supernatural-band.co.uk - party funk and disco - the 'Ray is the only thing that does it.

I agree with the other posters who've mentioned the need to be very careful with the treble though. I always run with volume and bass on full, and treble could be anything from 0% up to about 70%. Usually it's on 10%-20%.

All the basses have flatwounds (apart from the uke obviously).

I love them all and wouldn't be without any of them.

The P is solid and completely reliable for sound. The Ray is riskier. It's possible to get it wrong but it's the only way if you are doing disco stuff.

I haven't mentioned the J - nothing else will do the growl that you get with the pickups blended. I love the MM Sire, it really has a sense of occasion, but the active EQ is too complicated. Usually I just run it all flat.

 

Sorry, I've gone on a bit but the summary would be - the 'Ray has lovely character, feels special, and has a unique sound that none of the other basses gets anywhere near. I think if I had to restrict to a single bass it would probably be a passive US Jazz, for the versatility, but actually the 'Ray is the one that gets the most use.

 

YMMV, etc

I'd love to hear comments, what don't you agree with here? what am I missing out on?

[Delberthot]

I know I've said it before but I would use my Sterling in any band I was asked to play in regardless of genre. 

I'm at the stage now after owning christ knows how many basses (140+ I think) that the most important thing is how it plays. If it feels wrong then you're not going to get the best out of the bass or yourself. You can worry about the sound later by changing the pickups, strings, eq etc if needs be.

It's the reason that the Rickenbacker is no longer in my sig because no matter how much I tried to love it and get it to feel right it just wasn't quite there so is up for sale (not here obviously)

10 years ago this bass may not have been what I wanted in terms of how it plays. In fact, looking back at the pictures i have of my basses, in 2009 I had 2 Warmoth 54 single coil precisions, 2 12 strings, a Harmony Gibson Grabber copy, Squier precision with the big tele humbucker at the neck, Warwick Corvette $$ 5 string, Squier Jazz fretless, E series Fender Japan Precision, G&L L2000 and a Fender MIM Phil Lynott replica.

I forget where I'm going with this but erm something, bibble, time for bed