Funk advice - stick to the bassline or busk it?

[paul_c2]

11 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

Isn't that the elusive part though?  You can learn the meter of the song and measure your notes precisely against the bar and yet that does not guarantee you a groove.

I believe in the words of the title of Deee-Lite's song; Groove is in the Heart...  ain't it the truth?

Its not unachievably elusive (it is learnable). (Yes, there will be 1% who don't "get it").

[TrevorR]

9 hours ago, Ricky 4000 said:

Trivia note:

Apparently, hearing Good Times was what prompted Queen to come up with AOBTD.

I'm surprised Nile Rogers didn't want 50% of it. 😁

Don’t worry, a late Motown vocalist’s estate will be along soon enough to claim it sounds vaguely similar to something he whistled in the shower once...

[Ricky 4000]

1 hour ago, SpondonBassed said:

Isn't that the elusive part though?  You can learn the meter of the song and measure your notes precisely against the bar and yet that does not guarantee you a groove.

I believe in the words of the title of Deee-Lite's song; Groove is in the Heart...  ain't it the truth?

I love that tune (and the video). Here's a bit of trivia from Bootsy's Wiki:

Quote

In 1990, Collins collaborated with Deee-Lite on their biggest hit "Groove Is in the Heart", and he contributed additional vocals. Although he also appeared in the music video playing the bass, the bassline in the song is actually a sample of a Herbie Hancock song called "Bring Down the Birds". Bootsy's Rubber Band became the de facto backing musicians for Deee-Lite during a world tour.

 

[fleabag]

Quite right

 

[paul_c2]

16 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

Isn't that the elusive part though?  You can learn the meter of the song and measure your notes precisely against the bar and yet that does not guarantee you a groove.

I believe in the words of the title of Deee-Lite's song; Groove is in the Heart...  ain't it the truth?

Further to Lady Miss Kier's words on the matter, Stevie Wonder also commented: "just because a record has a groove don't make it in the groove". So maybe you have a point, there. However he also went on to say "But you can tell right away at letter A when the people start to move". Thus, I conclude that if the audience are dancing sufficiently enthusiastically then "the groove" has been adequately established.

[funkgod]

On 26/12/2018 at 18:50, lownote12 said:

We have a fantastic new funk club in Norwich.  The standard of playing is awesome and I love it.  Well.. I would, only I'm just learning that bass is high profile in funk, and well known numbers involve well known seminal bass lines.  Now I have a dreadful memory and can't learn bass lines, and therefore have always been in bands which allow me to do my own thing.  Is this 'lese majeste' in funk, should I make the effort, or are there grounds for allowing me to go my own way? 

dont busk it, unless every one else is.

if every one else has made the effort to learn the song right , then respect that and learn the song right or you will be jamming over everyones hard work = disrespect.

in a perfect world, learn the song, understand the groove, and find the places where you can if wanted add your touch, if your bits go tits up, you can always jump back on the groove and in funk its the bass groove that carry's the song so you can be sure that bass line has already been thought about by quite able bass players,  so , the chance of coming up with something better on the fly is doubtful.... fun yes,  but doubtful. thats how i look at it.

[SpondonBassed]

20 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

Further to Lady Miss Kier's words on the matter, Stevie Wonder also commented: "just because a record has a groove don't make it in the groove". So maybe you have a point, there. However he also went on to say "But you can tell right away at letter A when the people start to move". Thus, I conclude that if the audience are dancing sufficiently enthusiastically then "the groove" has been adequately established.

 

[paul_c2]

You'll probably appreciate this one then. Its one of Aimee's best lessons so far:

 

[mcnach]

4 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

You'll probably appreciate this one then. Its one of Aimee's best lessons so far:

 

 

loved it!

[Ricky 4000]

Loved what about it? Is it subtle ironic comedy that went straight over my head? 😖

[TrevorR]

4 hours ago, Ricky 4000 said:

Loved what about it? Is it subtle ironic comedy that went straight over my head? 😖

Thing is, that video will seem like such tosh or stupidly simple stuff for most folks on this site but it’s not aimed at those of us who have that kind of internal rhythm. It’s aimed more at those formally trained musicians who can sing or play the notes strictly à tempo but don’t have a loose, swung bone in their body. She does talk about her piano students at the top of the vid, after all.

Think of those “classical soprano sings jazz” albums that Kathryn Jenkins, Dame Kiri and the like release - all painfully stiff and straight in their timing. The choir my little boy sings in does all sorts of stuff from jazz to pop to show tunes to folk songs to whatever and I find listening to the choir mistress fascinating and horrifying in equal measure sometimes. She and the other choir mistress will often do a solo or duet spot during the choir shows. Now if they choose to do Delibes Flower Duet from Lachme or Ave Maria or some  other classical piece it’s absolutely sublime. If they choose to do Summertime or a Simon and Garfunkel tune or an Irving Berlin jazz show-tune it is absolutely painful. They. sing. it. so. pain. full. ly. straight...

Vocalising rhythms like in the video is actually a really powerful way of internalising feel and it’s that kind of person (the 1-3 clappers) that the video is aimed at. For us it’s “Well d’uh!” For them it’s a potential  revelation!  

Edited December 30, 2018 by TrevorR

[mcnach]

16 hours ago, Ricky 4000 said:

Loved what about it? Is it subtle ironic comedy that went straight over my head? 😖

 

It's a fun little video, to me. Not exactly a 'lesson' but I found it fun to watch. 

Hey, some love Michael McIntyre and I can't stand the guy... 

[Ricky 4000]

3 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

It's a fun little video, to me. Not exactly a 'lesson' but I found it fun to watch. 

Hey, some love Michael McIntyre and I can't stand the guy... 

I can't stand him either. 👍

So, basically, you and Trevor both fancy the music teacher.

Ain't nuthin' wrong with that. 😁

[lownote]

i love the violet eyes. call me simple,

[SpondonBassed]

20 hours ago, TrevorR said:

it’s not aimed at those of us who have that kind of internal rhythm. It’s aimed more at those formally trained musicians who can sing or play the notes strictly à tempo but don’t have a loose, swung bone in their body

Well said.

You could say that musicians loosely fall into two categories; Those who have an inbuilt meter which allows them to play swings and roundabouts with an otherwise geometrically regular rhythm and those who adhere strictly to that rhythm because, after all, it is written there in black and white.  Both sorts are employable.  Both have their merits.  Relatively few folk fall into both camps until they've gained many years experience but with personal growth, there is a convergence of the two schools of playing over time.

That's just how it strikes me as an amateur.  I've probably got it completely wrong.

[Ricky 4000]

I've always thought that classically trained persons could easily do what "we" do (if they wanted to), while "we" probably couldn't do what "they" do.

And, I could believe there are some young classical musicians who've never listened to i.e. Bootsy's Rubber Band (probably a good thing if they want to pass their exams 😁), but really? Are there really musicians who don't comprehend any kind of "groove" or "swing" in music...?

Are there middle aged classical musicians out there who "don't get" jazz...?

Come on.... 😁 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Ricky 4000

[SpondonBassed]

1 minute ago, Ricky 4000 said:

Are there really musicians who don't comprehend any kind of "groove" or "swing" in music...?

Oh yes.

Have you never bought one of those compilations that used to be commonplace where all of the songs were covers?  They'd get the instrumentation, arrangement and overall delivery as the original but it would never quite work.  They were playing to a score, I'm sure.  They'd have to have heard the originals but they never seemed to actually get them.

Maybe you are too young to remember all those cassette albums that claimed to be by original artists but weren't.

[Ricky 4000]

2 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

Oh yes.

Have you never bought one of those compilations that used to be commonplace where all of the songs were covers?  They'd get the instrumentation, arrangement and overall delivery as the original but it would never quite work.  They were playing to a score, I'm sure.  They'd have to have heard the originals but they never seemed to actually get them.

Maybe you are too young to remember all those cassette albums that claimed to be by original artists but weren't.

I remember those cheap "Top of the Pops" albums from Woolworths! (what a disappointment they were, to a young boy). But, I'd say that the "generic" feel of those records was likely more about the production methods (we must get a decent rendition of these top 20 songs down, and double quick because we're on studio time! Start the click track!).

Thinking back, those session players probably did a good job, considering. 👍

There is a Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_of_the_Pops_(record_series)

Quote

The albums were recorded by a studio group comprising session musicians and singers who remained uncredited, although they included Tina Charles and Elton John before they became famous in their own right.

Wow, I never knew that...

[TrevorR]

1 hour ago, Ricky 4000 said:

Are there really musicians who don't comprehend any kind of "groove" or "swing" in music...?

 Are there middle aged classical musicians out there who "don't get" jazz...?

Two of the greatest singers of their generation not getting the heart of a well known song...

 

The show tune singers getting it (Marni Nixon as the voice of Natalie Wood)...

 

 

 

[TrevorR]

Lesley Garrett having a pretty good go at it...

But compared with the fluidity of Ella...?

 

 

[TrevorR]

1 hour ago, Ricky 4000 said:

I've always thought that classically trained persons could easily do what "we" do (if they wanted to), while "we" probably couldn't do what "they" do.

If you want to see real terror, get a classically trained pianist (who isn’t also a rock/jazz player). Give them a chord chart and say, “12 bar blues in A, just feel the changes with us.”

 

Also works when giving guitarists sheet music.

[Ricky 4000]

26 minutes ago, TrevorR said:

Two of the greatest singers of their generation not getting the heart of a well known song...

>video<

They do seem a bit lost! 😲

Maybe it was the first run-through, and, it looks like they're busy reading the "free food" menu at the same time. 😁

[SpondonBassed]

Angelique Kidjo maims it:

Angelique Kidjo nails it:

 

[paul_c2]

57 minutes ago, TrevorR said:

If you want to see real terror, get a classically trained pianist (who isn’t also a rock/jazz player). Give them a chord chart and say, “12 bar blues in A, just feel the changes with us.”

 

Also works when giving guitarists sheet music.

 

2 hours ago, Ricky 4000 said:

I've always thought that classically trained persons could easily do what "we" do (if they wanted to), while "we" probably couldn't do what "they" do.

And, I could believe there are some young classical musicians who've never listened to i.e. Bootsy's Rubber Band (probably a good thing if they want to pass their exams 😁), but really? Are there really musicians who don't comprehend any kind of "groove" or "swing" in music...?

Are there middle aged classical musicians out there who "don't get" jazz...?

Come on.... 😁 

 

Its not really a case of "us" and "them"; more like that there's good and bad musicians in all forms of music. The less good musicians tend to focus on just a subset of their musical knowledge, and its easier for a less good 'classical' musician to not have to focus on things like swing, groove, playing by ear, improvising etc.

But let me reassure you, there's 'classical' musicians who can run rings around the average 'rock' musician for technical ability, knowledge, musicianship, etc etc in ALL aspects of playing music. 

Also worth mentioning, that jazz musicians tend to be able to read very well, in addition to improvising over chord changes etc etc (including the good guitarists!)

[lowdown]

1 hour ago, TrevorR said:

Two of the greatest singers of their generation not getting the heart of a well known song...

 

The show tune singers getting it (Marni Nixon as the voice of Natalie Wood)...

 

 

 

Dave Grusin and his Big Band got 'West Side Story', superbly!! - A terrific album.

 

 

I am hoping there is a DVD released of the recent concert.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by lowdown