Can someone tell me what makes up the £8k difference in price between these two basses?

[I Denby]

Oops. Typo

[chris_b]

2 hours ago, kodiakblair said:

Do you think that applies to Anthony Jackson, Victor Wooten or Bona and Garrison ?

Yes I do.

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

Don't you think, they are making huge profits !?!

One thing I do know. . . you know nothing about Foderas business model, running costs and expenses.

[Sibob]

Fodera (and many others) charge that amount because lots and lots of people are happy to pay it....because they see the worth. It’s really as simple as that.

Si

[lemmywinks]

17 hours ago, I Denby said:

So, is it not a question of a Fedora being a superior bass, but whether it's THAT superior (reflected by the price)

That's it, for me at least. nobody is doubting that they are indeed extremely good and not worth a few grand. Value is a funny thing though, if someone desperately wants a Fodera and £15k is pocket money then why not? A friend of mine spent several hundred pounds on a plastic handbag, she loves it and uses it every day. I think she's mental and needs a hobby but we're all different!

 

17 hours ago, NickA said:

" Don't you think, they are making huge profits !?! "

But hang on; these guys are trained and skilled craftsmen.  They deserve to make money more than any hedge-fund manager does.  Well, I reckon so.

Exactly, I never begrudge someone maximising their talent to earn money. We could make a massive list of people who earn obscene amounts that we don't think they deserve but it would be compeletely pointless, at least the Fodera guys are skilled craftsmen creating professional tools which have a reputation that places them in the upper echelon of their field.

 

Despite all that I still don't want one and think they look pretty lame, just as well really as I haven't got £15k to throw around. FWIW I do have a custom bass sat in a case in my spare room - it's very nice and is by far the best bass I've owned from an objective point of view. Doesn't have enough strings though so it no longer gets gigged, not the tool I need for the job.

Edited January 13, 2019 by lemmywinks

[prowla]

I think we're into the "Is a supercar really worth 10x a Mondeo" territory.

I guess there are many factors and I don't know the skill, expertise, product demand, man-hours required, and so-on involved.

How many instruments do they make a year? If it's 10, then £15k is not going to furnish a lavish lifestyle, whereas if it's 1000 then they're probably doing very nicely!

 

[EBS_freak]

Tsk all this talk about small fry prices...

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F132878594988

 

imagine what it would be worth if Fodera had a hand in choosing the wood.

Edited January 13, 2019 by EBS_freak

[AndyTravis]

9 minutes ago, prowla said:

I think we're into the "Is a supercar really worth 10x a Mondeo" territory.

I guess there are many factors and I don't know the skill, expertise, product demand, man-hours required, and so-on involved.

How many instruments do they make a year? If it's 10, then £15k is not going to furnish a lavish lifestyle, whereas if it's 1000 then they're probably doing very nicely!

 

I quite like the look of their standards which have aesthetic like 60’s fenders, think they do a precision type and a jazz...they’re about £4K which is firmly in Fender CS money territory.

The 10-15k models are Emperors and AJ Presentation Models which obviously take more attention.

 I’d guess they build about 600 instruments a year?

Edited January 13, 2019 by AndyTravis

[prowla]

1 minute ago, AndyTravis said:

I quite like the look of their standards which have aesthetic like 60’s fenders, think they do a precision type and a jazz...they’re about £4K which is firmly in Fender CS money territory.

The 10-15k models are Emperors and AJ Presentation Models which obviously take more attention.

 I’d guess they build about 600 instruments a year?

So that's something like £5m a year turnover.

[AndyTravis]

Just now, prowla said:

So that's something like £5m a year turnover.

With associated costs and taxes etc, I bet they’re making a decent living but hardly driving to work in a Bugatti Chiron...

[Hellzero]

19 hours ago, chris_b said:

One thing I do know. . . you know nothing about Foderas business model, running costs and expenses.

I won't argue as I only have an European diploma in business management (I must be some kind of moron has I only got the highest distinction with 91%) among others, but if you can read, which is something I doubt, as I explained my analysis a few times in this thread, here is something interesting : https://bklyner.com/industry-city-maker-spotlight-fodera-guitars/

So they have 20 employees, making around 300 instruments a year with an annual estimated revenue of $10.700.000 USD.

I'll let you do the maths as I'm too stupid to do it, but in a communist approach (as they seem to be philanthropic people) each of the employee would earn around $12.000 USD per month all taxes, running costs, expenses and investments deducted.

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Hellzero
@prowla deduced that it's certainly deducted. 😉

[Frank Blank]

4 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

I won't argue as I only have an European diploma in business management (I must be some kind of moron has I only got the highest distinction with 91%) among others, but if you can read, which is something I doubt, as I explained my analysis a few times in this thread, here is something interesting : https://bklyner.com/industry-city-maker-spotlight-fodera-guitars/

So they have 20 employees, making around 300 instruments a year with an annual estimated revenue of $10.700.000 USD.

I'll let you do the maths as I'm too stupid to do it, but in a communist approach (as they seem to be philanthropic people) each of the employee would earn around $12.000 USD per month all taxes, running costs, expenses and investments deduced.

 

One thing I do know... you gots to love a quality come-back. First class.

[eude]

On 11/01/2019 at 21:20, NickA said:

With that budget to spend, I'd much rather have a Fodera (but a Shuker or an ACG would likely provide the same quality for a fraction of the price).

They absolutely do!

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, AndyTravis said:

With associated costs and taxes etc, I bet they’re making a decent living but hardly driving to work in a Bugatti Chiron...

Unlike the 'philanthropists' running FMIC, who charge far less (for their factory built mass production) but I'd wager their senior investors do!!  However for those who wish to argue your average Ford Fiesta is better than a Ferrari have no fear - you now have semi official supporters.....

I received my copy of BGM yesterday and in it the US Original Fender series are reviewed - they got ten/ten for build and sound - fair enough but in the same issue a Fodera got 8/10 for build quality for no stated reason - in fact they couldn't fault it except for the cost - but as they mark value for money anyway it seems a bit odd.

In a previous issue they marked down the build quality on the new Stingray 5 on the basis they thought it was too heavy (9.4 lbs). That's lighter than all the Fenders (4 string) they just gave 10/10.

My conclusion - their reviews are inconsistent at best, nonsense at worst or worse still, biased. My order for BG magazine is definitely being cancelled - the jury's out on BGM but I've become seriously irritated and have started questioning buying it!! Maybe Silvia Bluejay can talk some sense into the Editor!! 

Edited January 13, 2019 by drTStingray

[AndyTravis]

1 minute ago, drTStingray said:

My order for BG magazine is definitely being cancelled 

Haven’t bought it in years - this is one of the many reasons...

[I Denby]

16 minutes ago, eude said:

They absolutely do!

Those Shukers are rather nice

[Muzz]

Shukers are indeed very very nice. And a bit moreish, too... 😕😃

[EBS_freak]

11 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Unlike the 'philanthropists' running FMIC, who charge far less (for their factory built mass production) but I'd wager their senior investors do!!  However for those who wish to argue your average Ford Fiesta is better than a Ferrari have no fear - you now have semi official supporters.....

I received my copy of BGM yesterday and in it the US Original Fender series are reviewed - they got ten/ten for build and sound - fair enough but in the same issue a Fodera got 8/10 for build quality for no stated reason - in fact they couldn't fault it except for the cost - but as they mark value for money anyway it seems a bit odd.

In a previous issue they marked down the build quality on the new Stingray 5 on the basis they thought it was too heavy (9.4 lbs). That's lighter than all the Fenders (4 string) they just gave 10/10.

My conclusion - their reviews are inconsistent at best, nonsense at worst or worse still, biased. My order for BG magazine is definitely being cancelled - the jury's out on BGM but I've become seriously irritated and have started questioning buying it!! Maybe Silvia Bluejay can talk some sense into the Editor!! 

It’s utter tosh!

[prowla]

56 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

I won't argue as I only have an European diploma in business management (I must be some kind of moron has I only got the highest distinction with 91%) among others, but if you can read, which is something I doubt, as I explained my analysis a few times in this thread, here is something interesting : https://bklyner.com/industry-city-maker-spotlight-fodera-guitars/

So they have 20 employees, making around 300 instruments a year with an annual estimated revenue of $10.700.000 USD.

I'll let you do the maths as I'm too stupid to do it, but in a communist approach (as they seem to be philanthropic people) each of the employee would earn around $12.000 USD per month all taxes, running costs, expenses and investments deduced.

 

(deducted)...

[Woodinblack]

13 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

In a previous issue they marked down the build quality on the new Stingray 5 on the basis they thought it was too heavy (9.4 lbs). That's lighter than all the Fenders (4 string) they just gave 10/10.

Surely that is only a build quality issue if you were aiming for a lightweight?

[Woodinblack]

5 minutes ago, Muzz said:

Shukers are indeed very very nice. And a bit moreish, too... 😕😃

They are - my favourite looking bass is still one of the Shukers from last year. They are in my 'maybe one day I will get' list, although waiting to see what the outcome of that broken one is.

[eude]

12 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Unlike the 'philanthropists' running FMIC, who charge far less (for their factory built mass production) but I'd wager their senior investors do!!  However for those who wish to argue your average Ford Fiesta is better than a Ferrari have no fear - you now have semi official supporters.....

I received my copy of BGM yesterday and in it the US Original Fender series are reviewed - they got ten/ten for build and sound - fair enough but in the same issue a Fodera got 8/10 for build quality for no stated reason - in fact they couldn't fault it except for the cost - but as they mark value for money anyway it seems a bit odd.

In a previous issue they marked down the build quality on the new Stingray 5 on the basis they thought it was too heavy (9.4 lbs). That's lighter than all the Fenders (4 string) they just gave 10/10.

My conclusion - their reviews are inconsistent at best, nonsense at worst or worse still, biased. My order for BG magazine is definitely being cancelled - the jury's out on BGM but I've become seriously irritated and have started questioning buying it!! Maybe Silvia Bluejay can talk some sense into the Editor!! 

I stopped buying it on principle after Future bought them out.

[Muzz]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

They are - my favourite looking bass is still one of the Shukers from last year. They are in my 'maybe one day I will get' list, although waiting to see what the outcome of that broken one is.

I really don't have any qualms about Jon's work, despite one failure - I've got three Shukers right now, and I've owned several more, and I've never encountered an issue like that, unfortunate as it has been. Any work I've asked Jon to do on existing basses (all preference changes, rather than actual problems) has been perfect. I'm sure it'll be sorted out.

[Bobthedog]

4 hours ago, Hellzero said:

I won't argue as I only have an European diploma in business management (I must be some kind of moron has I only got the highest distinction with 91%) among others, but if you can read, which is something I doubt, as I explained my analysis a few times in this thread, here is something interesting : https://bklyner.com/industry-city-maker-spotlight-fodera-guitars/

So they have 20 employees, making around 300 instruments a year with an annual estimated revenue of $10.700.000 USD.

I'll let you do the maths as I'm too stupid to do it, but in a communist approach (as they seem to be philanthropic people) each of the employee would earn around $12.000 USD per month all taxes, running costs, expenses and investments deducted.

 

I am not sure where those revenue numbers come from as I cannot see that in the article. In fact from a google search I cannot see any revenue figures on line for Fodera (one article suggested they make $15k gross revenue per employee but gave no detail or when that was). You have have some access to a private companies' accounts, I do not, however. Based the numbers above it would suggest an average retail price of $35,666 per guitar, which is nonsense. So either they make revenue elsewhere, or those number are wrong. 

What I can see in that article is that they make between 350-400 guitars a year and I would suggest (with no stats to support this assumption) an average price of, let's say, $15k per guitar (they will not sell that many $30k guitars compared to the ones at $8k). That brings the gross revenues down to $6.0m a year (at 400 guitars) or $25k per month per employee (still higher than the $15k I saw online above). Irrespective of any of this, the average craftsman's salary in NY is $88k per year (May 2018). If we take the UK average of employer costs are 3 x salary, Fodera's costs per year would need to be $5.28m. Well done Fodera and long may you stay in business.

Not that any of this has relevance to me, If I knew what I wanted from a custom bass guitar, Fodera could deliver it and in my mind it was better than I could find elsewhere, I would buy one. I am certainly not going to get upset at their margins if I was happy.

[NickA]

3 hours ago, Muzz said:

Shukers are indeed very very nice. And a bit moreish, too

I'm told "the man" himself is coming to the next Midlands Bass Bash - hope he brings a bass or two.