Can someone tell me what makes up the £8k difference in price between these two basses?

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Muzz said:

. I'm sure it'll be sorted out.

Oh I am too, interested to see what happens, and yes unusual (I have never seen that in anything) but is still something which made me hesitate a bit 

[mcnach]

4 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Unlike the 'philanthropists' running FMIC, who charge far less (for their factory built mass production) but I'd wager their senior investors do!!  However for those who wish to argue your average Ford Fiesta is better than a Ferrari have no fear - you now have semi official supporters.....

I received my copy of BGM yesterday and in it the US Original Fender series are reviewed - they got ten/ten for build and sound - fair enough but in the same issue a Fodera got 8/10 for build quality for no stated reason - in fact they couldn't fault it except for the cost - but as they mark value for money anyway it seems a bit odd.

In a previous issue they marked down the build quality on the new Stingray 5 on the basis they thought it was too heavy (9.4 lbs). That's lighter than all the Fenders (4 string) they just gave 10/10.

My conclusion - their reviews are inconsistent at best, nonsense at worst or worse still, biased. My order for BG magazine is definitely being cancelled - the jury's out on BGM but I've become seriously irritated and have started questioning buying it!! Maybe Silvia Bluejay can talk some sense into the Editor!! 

 

Reviews in guitar magazines being biased? 

Noooo...

[Cato]

5 hours ago, drTStingray said:

 

I received my copy of BGM yesterday and in it the US Original Fender series are reviewed - they got ten/ten for build and sound - fair enough but in the same issue a Fodera got 8/10 for build quality for no stated reason - in fact they couldn't fault it except for the cost - but as they mark value for money anyway it seems a bit odd.

Worth remembering that Fender is an absolute behemoth in the guitar world.

Apart from Fender branded instruments they also own Gretsch, Jackson and Charvel and countless others.

FMIC accounts for a huge chunk of all of the guitar/bass advertising market. The bottom line is that magazines like BGM simply cannot afford to p!ss them off.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Cato

[Paulhauser]

2 hours ago, Bobthedog said:

I am not sure where those revenue numbers come from as I cannot see that in the article. In fact from a google search I cannot see any revenue figures on line for Fodera (one article suggested they make $15k gross revenue per employee but gave no detail or when that was). You have have some access to a private companies' accounts, I do not, however. Based the numbers above it would suggest an average retail price of $35,666 per guitar, which is nonsense. So either they make revenue elsewhere, or those number are wrong. 

What I can see in that article is that they make between 350-400 guitars a year and I would suggest (with no stats to support this assumption) an average price of, let's say, $15k per guitar (they will not sell that many $30k guitars compared to the ones at $8k). That brings the gross revenues down to $6.0m a year (at 400 guitars) or $25k per month per employee (still higher than the $15k I saw online above). Irrespective of any of this, the average craftsman's salary in NY is $88k per year (May 2018). If we take the UK average of employer costs are 3 x salary, Fodera's costs per year would need to be $5.28m. Well done Fodera and long may you stay in business.

Not that any of this has relevance to me, If I knew what I wanted from a custom bass guitar, Fodera could deliver it and in my mind it was better than I could find elsewhere, I would buy one. I am certainly not going to get upset at their margins if I was happy.

Just one thing: I think the average selling prices of Fodera basses are a lot less than what you suggest. 

They make quite a lot of standard models which are less expensive, they sell most of them (and quite a lot of the custom ones, too) through dealers so they are making a lot less than the 'street price' of the instruments. 

I actually don't think that they are making super money tbh but I do think they are a more solid operating business than in the years before Jason joined the team. 

Can't and won't comment on the calculations but strictly from a business point of view I think that as long as they have a clientele that is happy and satisfied by what they are getting and are willing to pay for it then the business will be all good. And in this day and age I'm happy for all small to mid size business that can survive - especially so for one that produces bass guitars and very high quality ones, too 

 

[Bobthedog]

1 hour ago, Paulhauser said:

Just one thing: I think the average selling prices of Fodera basses are a lot less than what you suggest. 

They make quite a lot of standard models which are less expensive, they sell most of them (and quite a lot of the custom ones, too) through dealers so they are making a lot less than the 'street price' of the instruments. 

I actually don't think that they are making super money tbh but I do think they are a more solid operating business than in the years before Jason joined the team. 

Can't and won't comment on the calculations but strictly from a business point of view I think that as long as they have a clientele that is happy and satisfied by what they are getting and are willing to pay for it then the business will be all good. And in this day and age I'm happy for all small to mid size business that can survive - especially so for one that produces bass guitars and very high quality ones, too 

 

I totally agree with you, on all your points. I was merely responding to Hellzero's post which suggested (at least the way I read it) that the average price was around $35k. My original calculations used $9k as an average but the revenues would not work based on an average NY state craftsmen's income.

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, Cato said:

FMIC accounts for a huge chunk of all of the guitar/bass advertising market. The bottom line is that magazines like BGM simply cannot afford to p!ss them off.

Which makes their reviews completely worthless

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Which makes their reviews completely worthless

Yes, quite. The fact that some of the foibles of the Precision's playability are mentioned in the text but not reflected in the scoring suggests this as well.

I think the cause is different individuals reviewing them and giving inconsistent scores rather than specifically toadying to a potential advertiser - and Fender don't seem to place more advertising than say Warwick or others. You'd have thought some editorial process would have caught this.

For students of this travesty, a review of an Overwater in a previous issue also got less than perfect scores as did an ACG in this issue. 

Reading the article on the Fenders it appears the reviewer was scoring them against other Fenders and refers to flawless build quality and QC including the control cavities. Whether the Jazzes are shielded well enough to avoid the usual electrical hum is not mentioned. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by drTStingray

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, Paulhauser said:

Just one thing: I think the average selling prices of Fodera basses are a lot less than what you suggest. 

They make quite a lot of standard models which are less expensive, they sell most of them (and quite a lot of the custom ones, too) through dealers so they are making a lot less than the 'street price' of the instruments. 

I actually don't think that they are making super money tbh but I do think they are a more solid operating business than in the years before Jason joined the team. 

Can't and won't comment on the calculations but strictly from a business point of view I think that as long as they have a clientele that is happy and satisfied by what they are getting and are willing to pay for it then the business will be all good. And in this day and age I'm happy for all small to mid size business that can survive - especially so for one that produces bass guitars and very high quality ones, too 

 

Are they really only making 300-400 instruments a year when they're selling the standard models through a dealer network? Or are they making 300-400 of the upper echelon instruments and rather a lot more standards?

[Bobthedog]

11 minutes ago, tauzero said:

Are they really only making 300-400 instruments a year when they're selling the standard models through a dealer network? Or are they making 300-400 of the upper echelon instruments and rather a lot more standards?

According to the article posted by Hellzero they make 350-400 a year in total. 

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, drTStingray said:

For students of this travesty, a review of an Overwater in a previous issue also got less than perfect scores as did an ACG in this issue. 

Well, that is ok, I would expect a perfect score to be a really rare event.

I am not sure how you can take the subjectiveness out of a review however all the time you have more than one person reviewing something, and all the time that a normal person has their own tastes.

I mean, things have variable quality, so take for instance a P Bass. You get bad ones and good ones, so you must have ones that are pretty well firewood, and some that are so perfect. To me, I can't deal with the spacing of the P bass well, so it can never be perfect to me, which means that if I was reviewing one, although I can tell the difference between average and good, I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one that was very good, and one that was perfect.

[The59Sound]

It's like a fine watch. Something 1/100 of the price will do the same job. But does the cheap watch have the history, heritage, build quality and prestige of the fine watch?

Marketing is also another element in this...

[Paulhauser]

7 hours ago, tauzero said:

Are they really only making 300-400 instruments a year when they're selling the standard models through a dealer network? Or are they making 300-400 of the upper echelon instruments and rather a lot more standards?

I don't know as I was replying to a specific subject and those numbers were assumptions made in a previous post by somebody else. But to me 300-400 seems a good ballpark figure. Certainly they don't make thousands a year

[Hellzero]

12 hours ago, Bobthedog said:

I totally agree with you, on all your points. I was merely responding to Hellzero's post which suggested (at least the way I read it) that the average price was around $35k. My original calculations used $9k as an average but the revenues would not work based on an average NY state craftsmen's income.

You forgot the strings and accessories revenue and their sub companies (sold or not) plus other incomes like using their name (which isn't free, just like for any well established company), master classes, ... , plus the fact that they are making more instruments than what they say, in fact close to 1000 a year (a luthier working alone is crafting around 60 instruments a year and if I take Leduc experience when he had 10 employees, he was making around 1000 instruments a year, so double the team and you can get up to 3000 instruments) and, suddenly, everything is fitting the tables.

Also, just take a look at their hourly rate for servicing which is $150 USD, so at least twice the rate of any other luthier...

[ped]

Don't know why they bother giving a 'score' - what's the point? how about a write up which we can read and make up our own mind based upon what is alluded to in the article? Do people skip to the star rating and ignore the rest? It's not relevant.

[eude]

11 minutes ago, ped said:

Don't know why they bother giving a 'score' - what's the point? how about a write up which we can read and make up our own mind based upon what is alluded to in the article? Do people skip to the star rating and ignore the rest? It's not relevant.

Very good point, the subjective nature of a bass, and any instrument for that matter, almost renders the review process entirely pointless!

[Wilco]

Re BGM, coincidentally there is a Jazz type Fodera reviewed in the latest issue.

”Doesn’t exactly bowl you over”

”It’s a very good instrument, but not an exceptional one”

More specifically to this thread;-

“At this price I wanted to be blown away, but was not”

Value rating 6/10.........

[drTStingray]

8 hours ago, Wilco said:

Re BGM, coincidentally there is a Jazz type Fodera reviewed in the latest issue.

”Doesn’t exactly bowl you over”

”It’s a very good instrument, but not an exceptional one”

More specifically to this thread;-

“At this price I wanted to be blown away, but was not”

Value rating 6/10.........

Indeed but why the build quality being marked down and the sound as well - with no apparent justification.

The cost of the Fenders was mentioned negatively and they got a reduction for value as well - 8/10 I think. Presumably the gushy review plus lower cost influenced this (not - it was just a different reviewer and there's clearly not an editorial check for consistency)!

As I also said there are recent reviews of ACG and Overwater Jazz style instruments none of which got full marks and a new SR5S got marked down for being too heavy (9.4 lbs for a 5 string).

I have always been a loyal supporter of BGM - let's hope they do some decent articles or interviews in the near future otherwise like the lamented taken over BG magazine, I'll be consigning it to the boll**ks pile and ceasing to take it. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by drTStingray

[Bobthedog]

11 hours ago, Hellzero said:

You forgot the strings and accessories revenue and their sub companies (sold or not) plus other incomes like using their name (which isn't free, just like for any well established company), master classes, ... , plus the fact that they are making more instruments than what they say, in fact close to 1000 a year (a luthier working alone is crafting around 60 instruments a year and if I take Leduc experience when he had 10 employees, he was making around 1000 instruments a year, so double the team and you can get up to 3000 instruments) and, suddenly, everything is fitting the tables.

Also, just take a look at their hourly rate for servicing which is $150 USD, so at least twice the rate of any other luthier...

I am sorry but if they say they make 400 a year, I tend to believe them. Yes, they may be building up an exclusivity image but, there appear to be too many assumptions here. I also do not believe strings, master classes, brand name (who do they actually license to?) and servicing are going to make a material difference. Guitars are rarely serviced and strings are not a weekly purchase.

I am happy to accept these numbers if you can show evidence, but like my figures, this seems like optimistic speculation.

[mcnach]

11 hours ago, ped said:

Don't know why they bother giving a 'score' - what's the point? how about a write up which we can read and make up our own mind based upon what is alluded to in the article? Do people skip to the star rating and ignore the rest? It's not relevant.

 

I know someone who used to work for the magazine Guitarist. On the subject of scoring reviews, he said it was frustrating that he could not give his honest opinion because the manufacturers buy advertisements in the magazine, and you can't write negative things... so the scores were generally high, but reviewers tried to give subtle hints in the write up so that alert readers could read between the lines what the negatives were. At one point so many of the scores were 5/5 that an instrument with solid 4/5 across the panel would indicate they were not very impressed with it.

Crazy.

[mcnach]

10 hours ago, Wilco said:

Re BGM, coincidentally there is a Jazz type Fodera reviewed in the latest issue.

”Doesn’t exactly bowl you over”

”It’s a very good instrument, but not an exceptional one”

More specifically to this thread;-

“At this price I wanted to be blown away, but was not”

Value rating 6/10.........

 

That would be, according to the guy I mentioned earlier, as bad a review as they could give!

edit: It could also be that Fodera does not advertise in the magazine quite as much as Fender... so they can afford to be more honest?

Edited January 14, 2019 by mcnach

[mcnach]

13 minutes ago, Bobthedog said:

 I also do not believe strings, master classes, brand name (who do they actually license to?) 

 

Well, there's this chap in AliExpress who...

[Bobthedog]

1 hour ago, mcnach said:

 

Well, there's this chap in AliExpress who...

I am not sure I understand this reference? I am talking specifically about Fodera here. Lost me on this one. Anyhoo I am out of the thread now, before it becomes heated,

Edited January 14, 2019 by Bobthedog

[lemmywinks]

There's a few sellers on AliExpress with counterfeit Foderas (and every other bass ever).

[mcnach]

18 minutes ago, Bobthedog said:

I am not sure I understand this reference? I am talking specifically about Fodera here. Lost me on this one. Anyhoo I am out of the thread now, before it becomes heated,

 

(not sure why anything needs to get heated... )

It was just a joke, about the Fodera 'copies' found on AliExpress, like the one shown in the previously posted video. The guy is great to watch, so I'll post it again:

 

[drTStingray]

33 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

(not sure why anything needs to get heated... )

It was just a joke, about the Fodera 'copies' found on AliExpress, like the one shown in the previously posted video. The guy is great to watch, so I'll post it again:

 

Now those guys really do take the p*ss!!

What's the betting the Eiffel Tower on the picture behind is a counterfeit and liable to collapse owing to structural issues - or the sofa's a counterfeit and liable to split down the middle - perhaps the chap himself is a counterfeit....

Reminds me very much of dodgy shell suits on sale in market stalls in the 1980s, which young ladies were in the habit of buying only to discover they ripped across the backside the first time they bent over 😧😂

Edited January 14, 2019 by drTStingray