Amp Quandry... Amp or Active PA / FRFR?

[Skybone]

Been back & forth on this one for ages, I'm seriously undecided which way to go. I'm running a Line6 HD500x, and really like the sounds I'm getting from it, however, after the last gig and the sound problems, I really think I need to get something.

As I said, the HD is great, the amp & cab models are fantastic, as are the effects, I'm really happy with it. If I get a dedicated bass amp, I'd have to bypass the amp's preamp and plug I to the effects return, but the amp could still colour the sound, and it would also be a bit of a waste of an amp if you bypassed the preamp.

The two main contenders are the Fender Rumble 500 or the Ampeg BA210. Was only really contemplating a combo, not a head & cab.

On the other hand, an Active PA speaker would retain the characteristics of the amp & cab models, but would it have the power or move the air as much as an amp & multi speaker cab?

Seen a few Active PA speakers that seem like they could do the job, but it's the power ratings that confuse. They appear to publicise the map's peak power rather than the RMS rating. How much power do you need in these things? I've seen some rated at 80w, some at 150w, some at 300w and some at over 1,000w.

Is bigger better?

What size speaker would give the best range?

Can't really afford anything too expensive, so was looking at something below £250, more than likely an Alto or something similar.

The band is a 4 piece, classic rock band, playing original material, but we'll probably not be going to play big gigs outside the local circuit.

[jrixn1]

What's your current rig? What are the sound problems you mention?

[LukeFRC]

More expert folk will chime in - but I think that a lot of PA speakers in that price range will be designed to be crossed over to a sub so won’t be designed or massively equipped for bass guitar duties. (Dependent on gig, music style, how much volume you need, amount of bottom you want out this speaker etc )

[Skybone]

Currently using the rehearsal rooms old Peavey rig (Century head I think, through 2 4x10's).

I plug my HD into the "Power Amp In" which bypasses the preamp. It sounds decent, but you do lose some of the top. Cuts through the mix, but we're not playing too loud in the rehearsal room.

We've done two gigs so far, first one was last week in a pub, PA but no monitors. DI'd the bass, but obviously, no one on stage could hear me. Second gig was last Friday. Full PA with monitors, but the sound guy was somehow unable to get a bass sound from a DI. When he did get a sound, we started a song, lo and behold, no bass again. Had to then plug into the venues bass amp (thankfully, it had an effects loop).

The quandry is whether to get a dedicated combo, or an active pa speaker. Basically, this is down to wanting to do a single trip load in for me.

[jrixn1]

Since you're happy with the HD500X, I agree with your reasoning regarding the colouration and redundancy of getting a bass amp just to bypass it.

I think better than the Alto TS 212, if you can go up to £299,  would be this B-stock RCF 312 on eBay.

The RCF website says 300W RMS into the 12" woofer and 100W into the compression driver. I don't know how loud your band is on stage, but it should be enough. If it really wasn't, the seller has a returns policy.

BTW definitely use it in front of you in the wedge position.  You'll hear it a lot better that way than something which is behind you.

Edited January 13, 2019 by jrixn1

[RichardH]

We use RCF 310s as monitors and they are pretty darn good. So the 312 should certainly do the trick.

[Skybone]

Seen a Mackie Thump 12A for a decent price, ant the blurb say they're designed to handle extra bass.

[Phil Starr]

I think you have to think this through, the Feder combo is £500+ and the Ampeg £450+ if you are asking can a cheap Alto or Mackie Thump do the same thing better then the answer is no. Could the RCF 315 at £430 do the job then, yes it could. There is a saving to be made by going the PA route but you won't get the same quality for half the price.

The main thing though is the difference in sound, good PA speakers are designed to put out a good copy of what you put in. Bass amps are made (hopefully) to make basses sound good and that usually means a little bit of colouration.

Your first step ought to be to audition the candidate systems to see if you really like the PA/clean sounding route to the traditional bass amp. If you do then there are advantages in terms of flexibility and a small cost saving, but beware, cheap PA cabs have to cut corners and that usually means in bass handling.

[Skybone]

Plenty of food for thought... just have to work on the budget now.  

Any opinions on the Mackie Thump?

[mrtcat]

58 minutes ago, Skybone said:

Plenty of food for thought... just have to work on the budget now.  

Any opinions on the Mackie Thump?

Personally I don't rate them at all. Try to stretch to something by rcf and I think you'll be better off.

[skidder652003]

21 hours ago, RichardH said:

We use RCF 310s as monitors and they are pretty darn good. So the 312 should certainly do the trick.

310 doesn't cut it IMO, I have to suffer one as my monitor (guitarist gets the 312, don't ask why) and its underpowersed for loud bass duty, as Phil, says 315 would be better.

[chris_b]

On 13/01/2019 at 21:15, Skybone said:

As I said, the HD is great, the amp & cab models are fantastic, as are the effects, I'm really happy with it. If I get a dedicated bass amp, I'd have to bypass the amp's preamp and plug I to the effects return, but the amp could still colour the sound, and it would also be a bit of a waste of an amp if you bypassed the preamp.

Is bigger better?

Why are you expecting an amp and cab or combo not to sound as good as your Line 6? If you choose well they could actually sound better. Adding anything into your signal chain has the potential to sound better or worse. Most of us don't use Line 6 and can sound pretty good.

IMO better is always better. If your gear is making a good sound then adding speakers will always make it sound better. If you buy something that doesn't sound how you want then more of it is probably going to sound worse.

[jacko]

3 hours ago, Skybone said:

Plenty of food for thought... just have to work on the budget now.  

Any opinions on the Mackie Thump?

We have them for Vocal monitoring. they're a bit stinky poo for everything else (apart from disco which is what they were built for)

[fretmeister]

I'm using a Yamaha DXR10 with a Helix and it's great.

 

Loud, punchy, and can be angled to point at me if I want that. 

There are a couple used ones for sale on thefretboard forum. Might be worth a look.

[Jack]

The RCF 3 series will probably be the equal of a bass combo that costs the same amount, which is to say that they'll do a lot for stage monitoring and would cover a quiet gig by themselves, but there will be some situation when they'd be underpowered. If you want one speaker to rule them all you'll need to step up the RCF 7 series. They're closer to £1000 but then so is a really great bass rig.

 

The savings to using an FRFR over an amp are usually weight, size and dispersion, not so much pure, hard cash.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Jack

[Skybone]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

Why are you expecting an amp and cab or combo not to sound as good as your Line 6? If you choose well they could actually sound better. Adding anything into your signal chain has the potential to sound better or worse. Most of us don't use Line 6 and can sound pretty good.

IMO better is always better. If your gear is making a good sound then adding speakers will always make it sound better. If you buy something that doesn't sound how you want then more of it is probably going to sound worse.

And that's the quandary...

With the HD, I have got a sound that I am very happy with, as well as a bunch of effects that work with that sound.

All of the bass amps I've owned in the past were merely ok means of projecting a sound, but I wouldn't call any of them that great. Admittedly, that was some time ago, as I've not needed a bass amp in 20 years. I do have a Hartke head & a 2x10 cab at home, but I've not used them since I bought them (that band went belly up). That does sound reasonable with the HD plugged into the effects return, but was hoping to find a single unit that would accurately reproduce' my sound'.

We did some recording in the middle of last year, where I just DI'ed the bass from the HD, and I think it sounded great. 

 

[JohnDaBass]

7 hours ago, Skybone said:

Plenty of food for thought... just have to work on the budget now.  

Any opinions on the Mackie Thump?

As Phil says a Makie Thump 12A is not going to be as loud enough and powerful enough for bass as a bass combo. But, the Thump12A does offer a solution in some gigging environments. We have some regular gigs ,as a duo, in the bar of a small local pub and we use a Thump 12A and a JBL EON One Linear array. Bass & Alesis drum machine into the Thump12A and guitar & vocals into the JBL. It works really well for us at the volumes we need. My bass goes into Zoom MS-60B >> Tech21 VT Bas DI>> channel 1 and Alesis SR16 >> channel 2 of the Thump12A.  The JBL line array copes really well without the need of any sort of monitors. I would agree with the other comments that the Mackie Thump 12A cannot compete with my Fender Rumble 500 head and my DIY Basschat 12 mk1 cab. Clearly for larger gigs you have to invest in one of the premium brands RCF , QSC etc.

[Skybone]

Good for thought indeed.

Seen a good deal on the RCF ART310, is it comparative to the 312?

[Phil Starr]

There are a couple of places you can buy the RCF 310 Mk3 at just under £250 at the moment. RCF have introduced the Mk4 version so the 3 is a bargain, I bought two as monitors and PA use for our duo. They work well and at some time I will get round to trying them as PA (with subs) with our rock band. For the duo I go straight into them with the bass and at those levels it all sounds good, both DI'd (I've a John East J-Retro on the bass for tone shaping) and also when running through a Zoom B1ON as amp sim. I have thought of trying them as a pair as bass stack but IMO you would be pushing just a little too hard to get away with one playing alongside a full drumkit. It's pretty much the same as with a bass combo, a single 10 just isn't quite enough to get the sound levels a good 12 will just about make it at the current levels of technology.

[Skybone]

Will have to search for the Mk3 at that price. Haven't found any yet.

[jrixn1]

This is not something I've tried, but if you high-pass your monitor quite high (150-200Hz?), would the smaller powered speakers like an RCF 310 cope better?  In theory you should still hear any lower frequencies spilling back from FOH.

[Skybone]

Jeez, I keep going round in circles here. Been looking at various active participation speakers, like the RCF ART & the Yamaha DBR, but then I'm back into dedicated bass combo territory. Where you could pick up a 300w+ combo for the same money, if not less.

I have seen the Headrush FRFR for a reasonable price, but it's obviously designed for our guitar playing colleagues. Is it good with bass? Who knows. 

I'm predominantly wanting/needing something that will give some bass on stage, so the rest of the band can hear what I'm playing. A PA speaker setup would be ideal, but there again, so would a decent combo with an effects loop.

[jrixn1]

Can you try out your existing Hartke head & 2x10 at the next gig, to see how it fares?  The Headrush (or Alto TS312) might be more of a sideways movement, rather than an upgrade -- you don't want to end up with two "ok" rigs.  Although with the Hartke, you'd have to resign yourself to making two trips to the car   Alternatively - what is the Hartke rig, and does it have any resale value, to up your budget?

[Skybone]

No idea what the sale value is, as I haven't seen another one up for sale! It's an HA4000, the cab is a Red Sub (Gear4Music own brand) 2x10.

I was hoping to minimise the load in, so would prefer not to take the Hartke.

Back to trawling the Far Sale section, eBay, FB Marketplace and Gumtree...

[mingsta]

I can't comment on what's out there in £250 powered pa speaker range, but I have a pair of Yamaha DXR15s and DBR10s for band PA and monitor duties. From my experience neither sound as good for bass as a dedicated bass cab and head (I've got a Gen2 midget and Genz Neox2 2x12). But if I was going down that route I'd probably go for a second hand 12inch PA such as Yamaha DBR12 or rcf equivalent if there is one. Bit as someone else said, the best thing to do is to audition a few with your Line6 and see if it works for you.