Source Audio C4 Synth Pedal

[moley6knipe]

Thanks for all your work @Quatschmacher, and for taking the time to answer a ton of questions.... really appreciate it!

Now I've got a workflow going, I can see it's gonna be MC6 ftw here.  I used the Neuro desktop app to burn a load of presets to the C4.  Then set MC6 Bank 1 Preset A to engage a Filter sound on press 1, flash 'Bypass' when engaged, and then bypass C4 on Press 2.  Quite chuffed with that!

Quote

Then I later browse through them via the MC8 while playing, find one I like, add other SA pedals into the mod and then save as a Hub scene using the Hub buttons.

That's how I'd envisaged doing things I must say.... how do you "browse" through C4 presets from your MC8?  What I can't see in the MC6 manual is a way to do a simple "button 1 advances to next preset", "button 2 goes back to previous preset" sort of thing, without programming each message in....  For sure: that would be a good way to browse on the C4, and then capture the scene on the hub.

I really am sorry for all the Q's 🙂

[Quatschmacher]

14 minutes ago, moley6knipe said:

Thanks for all your work @Quatschmacher, and for taking the time to answer a ton of questions.... really appreciate it!

Now I've got a workflow going, I can see it's gonna be MC6 ftw here.  I used the Neuro desktop app to burn a load of presets to the C4.  Then set MC6 Bank 1 Preset A to engage a Filter sound on press 1, flash 'Bypass' when engaged, and then bypass C4 on Press 2.  Quite chuffed with that!

That's how I'd envisaged doing things I must say.... how do you "browse" through C4 presets from your MC8?  What I can't see in the MC6 manual is a way to do a simple "button 1 advances to next preset", "button 2 goes back to previous preset" sort of thing, without programming each message in....  For sure: that would be a good way to browse on the C4, and then capture the scene on the hub.

I really am sorry for all the Q's 🙂

I could probably share my old MC6 file. 
 

Basically you need to set up CC messages that correspond to the preset up/preset down commands in the C4. It’s something like CC106 and CC107 (can’t remember the exact ones off the top off my head but it’s in that region). Or you can set them to whichever CCs you want by configuring your C4’s MIDI map in the editor. 
 

So on one preset in your MC6 bank, choose “press”, “control change”, put in CC106 (or whatever it is for preset up), value 127, channel whatever your C4 is currently set to. 
 

Repeat the process for another button using the CC for preset down. 

[moley6knipe]

Aha!! That’s the missing piece.... there’s a CC for preset up and another for preset down. Sure, that’ll work, and I get how to do that on the MC6.

So, I don’t see those functions in the C4 manual’s ‘Current MIDI mapping’ table... is there somewhere I can access a list?

Ta!

[moley6knipe]

Ah..... the manual tells me how to open the midi map editor in the app which I’m guessing lists all of the CCs. Will try tomorrow...

[Quatschmacher]

2 hours ago, moley6knipe said:

Aha!! That’s the missing piece.... there’s a CC for preset up and another for preset down. Sure, that’ll work, and I get how to do that on the MC6.

So, I don’t see those functions in the C4 manual’s ‘Current MIDI mapping’ table... is there somewhere I can access a list?

Ta!

Just open the MIDI map in the editor and look down in the early 100s. Or just set your own. 

[SumOne]

It's a great synth pedal. The only other synth pedal I've owned is the Boss SYB-5 - the C4 does all those sounds and countless more with very low latency and good tracking.

Using it to replace an Octamizer and MXR M82 is a slightly more tricky choice:

• Octaver:  I'd gone through a lot of octave pedals to get to the Aguilar Octamizer which I think has the most usable and natural (least synthy) octave down tones, also can be ran clean to use as a tone control. I haven't found a C4 preset (yet) that replicates the Octamizer, some things very close though. This isn't a deal breaker as I usually use an Octaver with something like distortion or filter after it so the subtleties get lost anyway.
• Envelope filter: It does loads of envelope filter very well. Thanks to Quatschmacher for the 'Purple 2' which is the best I've found at replicating the M82 and is very very close. There's possibly a slight bit of M82's mojo that gets lost-  perhaps that's down to the limited hands on control, or is me being sentimental and I'll just need more time to get used to it.

The main issue I can see is that to fully replace my Octave and filter pedals like-for-like would need the ability to click with my foot for either/or both - I'd need an extra footswitch (like disaster area micro midi), a workaround is I have 3 separate toggle switch presets assigned (filter, octaver, octaver + filter), it's not quite the same as clicking by foot though. And to get all their knob controls to hand I'd also need some type of midi controller.....price creeps up and any pedal board space saving gets lost.

Also has:

• Distortion: Good range of distortion, probably won't be replacing any of my distortion pedals but is decent enough.
• Tremolo: Can work well as a tremolo pedal, I'd like time-based effects like echo but they don't seem to be an option.
• Quatschmacher's Upright sounds.
• ....and probably loads of other things I haven't found yet.

The C4 is a certainly a keeper, a great synth pedal. It doesn't fully replace all the hands-on control of separate Octaver and Filter pedals but adding some additional control pedals could mostly solve that. I guess in my ideal world the C4 would have some extra mappable knobs, and an extra footswitch or two go through presets - obviously that would make it bigger and more expensive though and can buy those controllers separately so can't really complain.

Edited November 26, 2020 by SumOne

[Quatschmacher]

28 minutes ago, SumOne said:

Envelope filter: It does loads of envelope filter very well. Thanks to Quatschmacher for the 'Purple 2' which is the best I've found at replicating the M82 and is very very close. There's possibly a slight bit of M82's mojo that gets lost-  perhaps that's down to the limited hands on control, or is me being sentimental and I'll just need more time to get used to it.

You could tweak the patch. This was written on Spectrum which has four parameters accessible on the two control knobs. For C4 you could simply change the two knobs in the editor so that they control filter 1 Q and filter 1 frequency. That would give you the Q and the Decay parameters of the BEF (decay is a misnomer as it actually sets the resting frequency in that pedal). You could then mute voice 2 (dry) and just use the hard-wired mix and volume knobs to regulate the voice balance and overall output. 

[SumOne]

5 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

You could tweak the patch. This was written on Spectrum which has four parameters accessible on the two control knobs. For C4 you could simply change the two knobs in the editor so that they control filter 1 Q and filter 1 frequency. That would give you the Q and the Decay parameters of the BEF (decay is a misnomer as it actually sets the resting frequency in that pedal). You could then mute voice 2 (dry) and just use the hard-wired mix and volume knobs to regulate the voice balance and overall output. 

Excellent, thanks. I have just started mucking about editing so will get onto that. I'm pretty sure that with a bit of time doing things like that the C4 will cover everything the M82 and Octamizer did, plus all the additional synth stuff makes for a great pedal.

 

[moley6knipe]

@Quatschmacher - successfully setup bank on MC6 to step thru C4 presets. Thanks for the pointers!

You were right: MC6 it is.... can’t see there’s many things I’d need to do that this setup won’t give me. Loving this after a slow start!

[Quatschmacher]

1 minute ago, moley6knipe said:

@Quatschmacher - successfully setup bank on MC6 to step thru C4 presets. Thanks for the pointers!

You were right: MC6 it is.... can’t see there’s many things I’d need to do that this setup won’t give me. Loving this after a slow start!

Yep, it’s powerful stuff. Glad you saw the light. 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Quatschmacher

[Quatschmacher]

Also, if you want to step up continuously, you can use the scroll action. You can also step up in bigger increments by assigning the message multiple times to a secondary action. I assigned the normal “preset up” to a release action then I copied the “preset up” CC 10 times and assigned the 10 copies to a double-tap. So a single press goes up by one, a double-tap goes up by 10.

[moley6knipe]

Now THAT’S a good idea. The level of options here is almost ridiculous!!

[Quatschmacher]

Another cool thing is to set up MIDI commands to change the envelope type and filter type. And you can use a button to reassign the control knobs’ functions. 

[SumOne]

I am really liking the C4, I just wish it had a bit more hardware control as there's so much going on, at a minimum to be able to use the 'alt' for control 1 and 2. Feels like this size pedal and controls works for the Aftershock, and perhaps the Spectrum, but the C4 needs more hardware control if you don't want to keep hooking up your phone/laptop or buying additional controllers. 

Ideally for me it would be the same size as something like the Collider (6 knobs, 2 footswitches,  2 toggle switches),  and include a patch number indicator or a small screen like on the small Zoom pedals. In fact, Zoom pedals like the MS60B manage to give a lot of control and information for low cost in a small enclosure.

I guess there's the option to add something like the disaster area footswitch and a midi controller with knobs - but doing both of those doubles the cost and uses more space than if the C4 had a bit more hardware control and information.  I think I'll be in the market at least for a Disaster Area micro midi in a few months.

Edited November 27, 2020 by SumOne

[Quatschmacher]

15 minutes ago, SumOne said:

I am really liking the C4, I just wish it had a bit more hardware control as there's so much going on, at a minimum to be able to use the 'alt' for control 1 and 2. Feels like this size pedal and controls works for the Aftershock, and perhaps the Spectrum, but the C4 needs more hardware control if you don't want to keep hooking up your phone/laptop or buying additional controllers. 

Ideally for me it would be the same size as something like the Collider (6 knobs, 2 footswitches,  2 toggle switches),  and include a patch number indicator or a small screen like on the small Zoom pedals. In fact, Zoom pedals like the MS60B manage to give a lot of control and information for low cost in a small enclosure.

I guess there's the option to add something like the disaster area footswitch and a midi controller with knobs - but doing both of those doubles the cost and uses more space than if the C4 had a bit more hardware control and information.  I think I'll be in the market at least for a Disaster Area micro midi in a few months.

I don’t think they anticipated just how successful it was going to be. They deliberately didn’t put it in the bigger housing as that would’ve been really expensive. To be honest, the small footprint is probably what helped shift it too.

I know it’s more, but I’d really recommend getting the Hub and a Morningstar controller to really open it all up. They do a tiny MC3 now.

They used pretty much all the code space in the C4 so there is only room for bug fixes and a few minor feature updates.

[SumOne]

24 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

I don’t think they anticipated just how successful it was going to be. They deliberately didn’t put it in the bigger housing as that would’ve been really expensive. To be honest, the small footprint is probably what helped shift it too.

I know it’s more, but I’d really recommend getting the Hub and a Morningstar controller to really open it all up. They do a tiny MC3 now.

They used pretty much all the code space in the C4 so there is only room for bug fixes and a few minor feature updates.

Yeah, I guess it's been designed so other hardware can be added so that's fine....have added some things to my shopping list!

[moley6knipe]

More playing around with the MC6. I’ve mapped Ctrl1 and Ctrl2 knob assign, and managed to get various functions on to those knobs eg Bass, Drive amount etc

Is there a smarter way to determine the CC value for each of the functions? Atm I’m cycling through them and eyeballing what the knob shows in the desktop editor.... but trying to find Treble is slooow! 🙂

Edited November 28, 2020 by moley6knipe

[Quatschmacher]

4 minutes ago, moley6knipe said:

More playing around with the MC6. I’ve mapped Ctrl1 and Ctrl2 knob assign, and managed to get various functions on to those knobs eg Bass, Drive amount etc

Is there a smarter way to determine the CC value for each of the functions? Atm I’m cycling through them and eyeballing what the knob shows in the desktop editor.... but trying to find Treble is slooow! 🙂

There’s currently a bug and it’s not fully mapped properly. I went through and documented knob 1. Here’s how it currently stands:

[moley6knipe]

Aha! Thanks. That explains why not all numbers would map to control 1 then. I couldn’t see a pattern when I too started an Excel log of them all.

It looks like only certain functions can go on #1 and same for #2 then? Had assumed anything could go anywhere....?

EDIT: dur. Of course, only things that make sense on a knob can be mapped to a knob I guess.

I’ll have a crack at mapping knob 2 in such case...

Edited November 28, 2020 by moley6knipe

[Quatschmacher]

7 minutes ago, moley6knipe said:

Aha! Thanks. That explains why not all numbers would map to control 1 then. I couldn’t see a pattern when I too started an Excel log of them all.

It looks like only certain functions can go on #1 and same for #2 then? Had assumed anything could go anywhere....?

EDIT: dur. Of course, only things that make sense on a knob can be mapped to a knob I guess.

I’ll have a crack at mapping knob 2 in such case...

In theory any parameter can be mapped to either knob. The lists are supposed to be identical for both knobs. They are in the editor. I didn't check all the knob 2 mappings because I only needed to ascertain that there is a problem so I could report it and the few I did check were the same. Don't know when it will get fixed though.

[Quatschmacher]

1 minute ago, Quatschmacher said:

In theory any parameter can be mapped to either knob. The lists are supposed to be identical for both knobs. They are in the editor. I didn't check all the knob 2 mappings because I only needed to ascertain that there is a problem so I could report it and the few I did check were the same. Don't know when it will get fixed though.

With the current MC6 firmware, you can have 1 button cycle through 16 messages, so can have 16 knob assignments selectable on C4; when the full v3.8.0 is released, you'll be able to cycle through all 128 CC values on a single button so will be able to select any parameter.

[moley6knipe]

For anyone reading and pondering MIDI controllers.... it’s Morningstar ftw so far. So glad I listened to the guru and kept my MC6 🙂

Mapped some filter MIDI functions in C4. Worked out roughly what CC values correspond to the on screen knob values in the desktop app. Set up a bank on MC6 with:

Button A - Press 1: Filter preset engaged / Press 2: Bypass pedal

Button B - Press: sweep frequency up / Release: return frequency to starting position.

Button C - Press: Invert filter / Release: un-invert filter.

So I can call up a filter sound, and then hold Button B and C to cause auditory carnage on the fly!

Mental. So many things yer can make this do and I really am a numpty. 

[Quatschmacher]

7 hours ago, moley6knipe said:

For anyone reading and pondering MIDI controllers.... it’s Morningstar ftw so far. So glad I listened to the guru and kept my MC6 🙂

Mapped some filter MIDI functions in C4. Worked out roughly what CC values correspond to the on screen knob values in the desktop app. Set up a bank on MC6 with:

Button A - Press 1: Filter preset engaged / Press 2: Bypass pedal

Button B - Press: sweep frequency up / Release: return frequency to starting position.

Button C - Press: Invert filter / Release: un-invert filter.

So I can call up a filter sound, and then hold Button B and C to cause auditory carnage on the fly!

Mental. So many things yer can make this do and I really am a numpty. 

The C4 editor has three modulation slots to which you can assign three parameters and you can specify the start and stop value of each. This is per patch and can be controlled by anything sending (by default) CC 100, be that an expression pedal or button presses. 
 

Have you used the CC waveform function in the MC6 yet? I’m presuming that’s how you’ve programmed your momentary up sweeps.

Have you loaded the beta v3.8.0 firmware? There are some nice new features. 

[AJ567]

Hey folks, Spectrum owner here. I just messed around with the neuro app (mobile) for the first time in a while, and I found that I can access a whole bunch of c4 presets which I couldn't access before. They seem to work fine on the spectrum...! 

Does anyone know if this is some kind of very cool update from Source Audio? Or am I going crazy...?

[dodge_bass]

2 hours ago, AJ567 said:

Hey folks, Spectrum owner here. I just messed around with the neuro app (mobile) for the first time in a while, and I found that I can access a whole bunch of c4 presets which I couldn't access before. They seem to work fine on the spectrum...! 

Does anyone know if this is some kind of very cool update from Source Audio? Or am I going crazy...?

It works the other way - you can use Spectrum patches on the C4. @Quatschmacher will be able to give you proper details - he’s the guru.