Bands that wont learn covers properly.

[PaulWarning]

15 hours ago, Paul S said:

It is a constant trickle of irritation in my little band.  Drummer and I take pains to get note/beat perfect if practicable or necessary (although not always).  Guitarist (who else?) is an exceptionally capable and talented player but always tries to shoehorn in 'doing our own version' because I believe his memory is failing - he prefers to busk things. Sometimes, as a result, we end up doing some very good alternative versions but, sometimes, it all sounds much the same. One tune in particular irritates the tits off me - no idea why particularly - we do Roachford's 'Cuddly Toy'.  He insists on playing over the breakdown where there should be no guitar.  Kills the song stone dead by taking away the light and shade.  There, unloaded that, feels much better [/rant] 

our guitarist plays 'his version' of some songs, I don't mind if it's the solo but he insisted on playing the repetitive question and answer bit on Whole Lotta Rosie  four different ways, when I pointed out that this was such a well known part of the song people think he just can't play it right (which he can) he threw his toys out of the pram and refused to play it ever again, must be terrible to have such a low self esteem

[Guest subaudio]

50 minutes ago, ubit said:

I think as long as a band is tight, they can get away with quite a lot. If a band has a good sound and is really tight, little things like playing everything exactly like the original can be forgotten.

I agree to a large extent, not all bands work because they are doing cool little detail stuff, I'm fine with that.

My points are that if a cover has those details a musician is missing out on a huge amount of learning potential by not working them out, and the song isn't as rich without them. I'm fine with some things being beyond someone's current skill level, as long as they are progressing towards them.

You don't have to play them note perfect but you do have to understand why and how the original was played as it was to be able to say your choosing different versions for creative reasons.

You can't say your making creative choices if you haven't studied the original parts and don't know the original chords and orchestration.

There's a huge difference between a lazy, just bash it out approach compared to actually being creative with a song.

I'd be totally happy if someone gave me an accurate chord chart for a cover I hadn't heard and said play your own bass line however you feel it, but I'd still want to study the original to include certain motifs and orchestration ideas if they spoke to me, that is a creative choice.

All the above isn't what I'm being presented with though.

I'm being instructed to learn specific versions, spending countless hours working out and perfecting them, then getting to the audition and no one else in the band is even aware of the arrangements and correct chords, they haven't done any work, they've listened once while playing to the verse and chorus, gone with that and called it done.

That's not creativity, its laziness.

Edited January 20, 2019 by subaudio

[Rich]

1 hour ago, Skinnyman said:

I'm currently learning a bunch of songs for an upcoming audition and have (so far) been impressed by the attention to detail. MP3 recordings of the band playing their arrangements, a breakdown of the structure they follow and, in a few cases, the previous bass player's own handwritten tab.

They sound like a class act. It's always a good sign when a band are so organised. Good luck with the audition, don't worry you'll breeze it

1 hour ago, Skinnyman said:

Rather, my biggest bugbear is learning a particular version of a song to be told "oh, we play such-a-bodies version" or "we do the version from their live album with the extended bridge section".

Yes, I've been caught out like that before. Before learning a song these days,  my first question is "which version?".

[Happy Jack]

1 hour ago, Skinnyman said:

I'm currently learning a bunch of songs for an upcoming audition and have (so far) been impressed by the attention to detail. MP3 recordings of the band playing their arrangements, a breakdown of the structure they follow and, in a few cases, the previous bass player's own handwritten tab.

Very professional and making me feel very concerned that I'll be way out of my league!

 

Just now, Rich said:

They sound like a class act. It's always a good sign when a band are so organised. Good luck with the audition, don't worry you'll breeze it

 

Up to a point. I had exactly this situation a couple of years ago. It then turned out that the reason for this attention to detail was that the other two band members were complete control freaks who wanted me to play EXACTLY what my predecessor had played, note for note, no room for anything else. 

[chris_b]

17 hours ago, subaudio said:

I've discovered a very irritating trend among "musicians" lately and am wondering how widespread it is

Probably doing some of these guys a favour by calling them musicians. Taking short-cuts, CBA or just not being able to hear a song properly can be a problem with guys who are hobby players, just having fun, but I've also seen a few pro musicians with the same faults. There's a lot of laziness in all aspects of the band world. I agree it's even more irritating when you learn the set then find they have changed stuff, either by fault or design, and didn't bother to tell you! Even pro bands can do this.

I know a guy who rearranges everything. His intention is to make the songs his, but after he's finished you find he's taken most of the interesting bits out and just turned the set into musical magnolia. I was playing with a very good band last night and the middle 8's and riffs of some of their songs were just wrong. They are an established band so I tried to play their versions with a nod to the original.

So, keep your standards up, don't let the others drag you down. Keep playing, improving, making contacts being flexible and hopefully you'll find a band that does things your way.

 

[Skinnyman]

32 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

 

 

Up to a point. I had exactly this situation a couple of years ago. It then turned out that the reason for this attention to detail was that the other two band members were complete control freaks who wanted me to play EXACTLY what my predecessor had played, note for note, no room for anything else. 

I’ve had this before. Guitarist in a band I auditioned for insisted on everything being as per the original recording. No deviation allowed - now, I agree with Subaudio that you need to know the original and keep the key essence of the song before you start to make changes, but this was a flat refusal to brook any kind of deviation from the original recorded work. 

I didn’t get the gig because I wasn’t very good (which is fair enough) but I don’t think I’d have taken it anyway.

i see the current audition as being professionally organised (as I say, out of my league but I’m of the camp that says you should play with people who are better than you are in order to learn) which is a Good Thing - but I will be on the lookout for the kind of control freakery that you encountered.

[P-ZARN]

As 'MIKEL' said :- 'It's Rock n Roll. There are no rules' !!!!

[stewblack]

When I read the title I thought I knew how I felt about this kind of sniffy attitude. However I was wrong, the OP is anything but sniffy. I have a lot of sympathy for what he's saying.

I play with a guy at an acoustic night once a month. He picks a couple of tunes, I learn them we meet and play. Last month I failed entirely to make sense of what he was playing.

Transpired he downloads the first chords he finds online, and somehow adjusts what he sings to match no matter how horribly wrong the chords are.

Nuts.

[ubit]

2 minutes ago, stewblack said:

Transpired he downloads the first chords he finds online, and somehow adjusts what he sings to match no matter how horribly wrong the chords are.

It's amazing how wrong some online tablature is. I like that Songsterr site, but I see so many that are obviously wrong, it's annoying!

[stewblack]

Just now, ubit said:

It's amazing how wrong some online tablature is. I like that Songsterr site, but I see so many that are obviously wrong, it's annoying!

I guess the idea is that so many people will edit and improve that ultimately the chords will end up correctly laid down. In reality musicians are lazy bastards and just take what's there and run with it.

[gary mac]

18 hours ago, Len_derby said:

Yep. Pretty universal I think.

Just last week I watched a pub band whose bass player just couldn't stop himself playing on the verse of All Right Now. Sounded pants to me. Maybe not to most of the audience though, I don't know. Are we being too picky?

I was in Tenerife last week and watching a band, their bass man committed the same sin and then played slap bass during the solo

[Skinnyman]

19 minutes ago, ubit said:

It's amazing how wrong some online tablature is. I like that Songsterr site, but I see so many that are obviously wrong, it's annoying!

 

18 minutes ago, stewblack said:

I guess the idea is that so many people will edit and improve that ultimately the chords will end up correctly laid down. In reality musicians are lazy bastards and just take what's there and run with it.

 

I use Guitar Tapp which is a really cool aggregator that brings together all the online tabs. Browsing through them, it’s amazing how much variation there can be for a single song

[PaulWarning]

19 minutes ago, gary mac said:

I was in Tenerife last week and watching a band, their bass man committed the same sin and then played slap bass during the solo

I was on a cruise and the house band did alright now, the bass player played slap over the verse!,  I went up to the guitar player afterwards and mentioned it, he said "yeah he does get a bit carried away doesn't he" didn't seem bothered, he probably didn't even like the song, and as long as he got payed why rock the boat 

[PaulWarning]

25 minutes ago, Skinnyman said:

 

 

I use Guitar Tapp which is a really cool aggregator that brings together all the online tabs. Browsing through them, it’s amazing how much variation there can be for a single song

911 tabs is another one, but it's also amazing how often the wrong tab gets copied and pasted onto other sites.

 

[Happy Jack]

6 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I was on a cruise and the house band did alright now, the bass player played slap over the verse!,  I went up to the guitar player afterwards and mentioned it, he said "yeah he does get a bit carried away doesn't he" didn't seem bothered, he probably didn't even like the song, and as long as he got payed why rock the boat 

On a cruise that's probably good advice.

[Count Bassy]

1 hour ago, P-ZARN said:

As 'MIKEL' said :- 'It's Rock n Roll. There are no rules' !!!!

Plus one on this. If you want to play things note perfect to the original (presuming there is only one version of the original), that's fine, join a band that wasnt the same thing. If someone else want's to play something slightly different than that's also fine. Most audiences would notice or care.

I'm not actively playing at the moment but when I have done "All Right Now" I've not played bass in the verse for the first two, but sometimes put something in the verse after the solo, as a way to build it up a bit. Re the solo in this song, does the gutarist include the guitar bit before the bass joins in or not? - Free recorded it did it both ways, so which is correct?

[Captain Bassman]

We all appreciate that (most) audiences can be indifferent to musical nuances within songs. It’s already been stated that a basic chord progression and vocal that resembles what they know will moe often than not suffice for having ‘a good time’.

For me though it comes down to personal pride in what I do. I will try to learn from the originals as accurately as my abilities will allow and this always seems to be  appreciated by my band mates. Hopefully that attitude has impacted their own attitude to learning new stuff over the years too. Although most of our recent issues have been down to the vocalists conveniently forgetting that they were supposed to learn the song...

Whether the punters ever notice, most likely not. But if it’s worth doing then it’s worth doing well. Otherwise you might as well not bother in my opinion.

[steantval]

55 minutes ago, Count Bassy said:

Plus one on this. If you want to play things note perfect to the original (presuming there is only one version of the original), that's fine, join a band that wasnt the same thing. If someone else want's to play something slightly different than that's also fine. Most audiences would notice or care.

I'm not actively playing at the moment but when I have done "All Right Now" I've not played bass in the verse for the first two, but sometimes put something in the verse after the solo, as a way to build it up a bit. Re the solo in this song, does the gutarist include the guitar bit before the bass joins in or not? - Free recorded it did it both ways, so which is correct?

One version is the official single version and the one with the added guitar before the bass run is the album version, you takes your choice as both are correct, in our Free tribute band, we always played the longer album version.

[Rich]

1 hour ago, gary mac said:

I was in Tenerife last week and watching a band, their bass man committed the same sin and then played slap bass during the solo

The things you see when you ain't got a gun.

 

[Tubster]

19 hours ago, arthurhenry said:

This is one of the inherent difficulties of the cover band world. There are excellent musicians, some of whom are pros who also work with well known artists, serious, practising players, average, non committal types and appallingly bad pretenders. They all play the same gigs and some of them are even in the same bands together. No one in the audience cares and venue owners who book the bands don't care.

 

[Guest subaudio]

Just a thought for new bassists reading all this and feeling a bit put off and not knowing what to do to learn a cover song.

Here's what I do. I'm not saying what I do is the best way, the correct way or disparaging any other method, it's just what works for me personally at this point.

Check which version you are asked to do.

Check the general key they play the song in.

Or just pick a song yourself.

 

I then keep my bass in its bag, its best to leave it there at first.

I then listen to the song three times one after the other, just listening to the bass and mentally noting anything that captures my ear.

I then take a notepad and pen and write out the arrangement in a list, intro, chorus, verse, middle 8, chorus, outro etc, playing the song through till I'm happy that I have the arrangement right.

I then pick up my bass and play along to what I think is right in a getting the root notes right way,  listening to anything in the track that sounds different to what I'm doing. Listening is the key to all this.

I then keep repeating the song, filling in more details as I go.

If there's any tricky bits I can't immediately play I make a mental note of what and where they are and keep on repeating playing to the track till I've got a good understanding of it in a general sense.

I then write out the basic chords next to the arrangement list made, for me personally I can remember the lines but I like to have a chords and arrangement list as a memory aid.

There is a school of thought that it's best not to write a song out as it helps you remember the songs without needing a cheat sheet, this is totally fine but if you have a lot of songs to learn in a short time, for me personally, I like to have a cheat sheet in case of momentary memory loss due to nerves at the gig etc.

I then work out the bits I can't play, Youtube lets you slow songs down but keeps the original pitch, which is super useful so you can work out what's happening, it sounds a bit weird but it does help.

I then work on the tricky bits at a tempo I can play them at and gradually increase the tempo on a metronome till I have it up to speed. I leave time in my practice routine to do this.

A good tip is to divide the number of hours you have available to practice before the gig by the number of songs you have to learn, so you know how long you have to work on each song.

I also like to do the hardest songs first so I can give them more time if needed, then divide the hours left by the number of remaining songs.

If you really cant figure out what is happening or its way beyond your current ability, just do the best you can, keep listening and maybe google the bassline, there are some great videos on how to play songs, but also some terrible ones. Check a few and go with what your ear tells you, also don't be afraid to ask the guitarist or other band members, be sparing with this if its an audition though, use your own judgement on how much you ask.

The biggest tip I could give is to listen.

Listen to the song, listen to the bass line, listen to yourself playing the bassline and check what sounds off to you.

Then listen to the band in rehearsal or at the gig, listening to yourself too, you'll get better and faster at hearing things that are wrong or right the more you do it.

As Prince said, "there's joy in repetition"

That's pretty much it.

Again, this is just what works for me, I've also started to write out the songs in music notation, which I find really useful and I just like doing it.

I spent years trying to concoct my own cheat sheet system and have come to think that notation is best for me because I want to improve my reading.

A straightforward cheat sheet arrangement list with chords and strum/bar lines is also really handy and quick.

If your doing your own version I'd still recommend all the initial listening and working out, it's a massive learning opportunity. Then play what feels and sounds good to you and your band mates.

Again, this is just for new bass players, there are countless better bassists than me on here who know better and more, this is just where I'm at right now, so if anyone has their own tips I'd love to hear them, it's a never ending process to perfect and speed things up.

Edited January 20, 2019 by subaudio

[skankdelvar]

6 minutes ago, subaudio said:

Here's what I do. <Snip> That's pretty much it.

 Thanks for laying that out. That's pretty much what I do, apart from the time management plan (which would be entirely beyond me) and the notation (which makes my head hurt).

[Ricky 4000]

I have this awful vision of a modern-day Titanic movie... the band play on while the passengers are boarding the lifeboats, but they're playing a slightly wrong version of "sex on fire". 😓 ... no, actually they're probably playing it right - but it's still > 😓

Edited January 20, 2019 by Ricky 4000

[thepurpleblob]

I learn a part for a song. Rehearse it. Gig it. Then a few weeks later be listening to it on headphones walking to work and realise I got it completely wrong. 

At least I go home and fix it. 

Happens far to often 😄

Edited January 20, 2019 by thepurpleblob

[mcnach]

21 hours ago, subaudio said:

That's what happened in the ska band

Me playing the actual bassline that cleverly ties all the proper chords together made their "version" of the chords sound wrong, so they asked me to play just quarter note root notes to their wrong chords.

I refused and declined the gig.

 

I can see both sides.

On the one hand, if I'm asked to learn song X, I learn it, and find that they play some other version or a rehash... I'd be like "why didn't you give me your version to start with?". At the same time... I'm the guy who might be joining whatever it is they're doing, so my place is to make my bassline fit in. If I'm playing a cover and my note perfect line does not fit what they play, then it's for me to change it to something that does. Anything else is being a little precious, IMO.

In general, 'though, I have to like the music, the people, and what they want to do with the music. If one fails, then I would not be interested.