Bands that wont learn covers properly.

[mcnach]

21 hours ago, Monkey Steve said:

Also, online tabs have a lot to answer for. Especially guitar tabs

 

+1

sometimes I've wondered what's wrong with people's ears. Sure, use a tab to help you get the bits faster... but if what you play does not sound right, throw it away and make it sound right. I've met people who just stick to the wrong chords just because that's the first version they downloaded a tab for... then when they play say a major chord (wrong) and you're going along in minor... they look confused.

One thing I like about originals... learning covers was a pain with some bands...

[mcnach]

6 hours ago, ubit said:

I think covers should be different from the original anyway. If you are playing to a drunken audience, most folks don't even listen anyway. It's background music. We played at a birthday party once. The electrics were dreadful and my valve amp kept cutting out. I would keep playing and 20 seconds later it would come back in, then same again all through the first set. We came off for a break, totally demoralised and everyone was, wow, that was great! I now know that as long as they can hear a beat, the singing and a semblance of a tune, they are happy. Little details like the bass coming in and out mean nothing to them.

I DI'd for the second set, but we had no monitors, so it was horrible for me.

 

Drunk audiences can tolerate almost anything, it's true. But I don't agree about the "covers should be different".

They  CAN be different, and that's great when done well. However most people I hear saying "the cover should be different" or "we play our own version" really what they're doing is saying those words to justify their being lazy. 

I'm not saying that's what your attitude is, since I don't know you  just stating my experiences

[mcnach]

3 hours ago, gary mac said:

I was in Tenerife last week and watching a band, their bass man committed the same sin and then played slap bass during the solo

 

Audience probably loved it 'though

And isn't that what it is about?

[ubit]

11 minutes ago, mcnach said:

really what they're doing is saying those words to justify their being lazy. 

I know what you mean mate, but it's not always being lazy when you change a song. You can change a song to make it more palatable to your target audience. Taking out a tedious passage or cutting short long outros etc, etc.

[Skinnyman]

2 hours ago, subaudio said:

Just a thought for new bassists reading all this and feeling a bit put off and not knowing what to do to learn a cover song.

Here's what I do. I'm not saying what I do is the best way, the correct way or disparaging any other method, it's just what works for me personally at this point.

 

A great post and something I try to do myself - I'm maybe not quite as disciplined but that's my failing.

The only thing I'd add is that once you've learnt the song, when you do go to play it with the band, listen to what the drummer's doing and be prepared to change what you're playing if needed....

[Woodinblack]

4 hours ago, steantval said:

One version is the official single version and the one with the added guitar before the bass run is the album version, you takes your choice as both are correct, in our Free tribute band, we always played the longer album version.

We play the version from the album, as that is what I am used to, although the crowd seem to expect the single and start singing the alright now after the solo.

They used to complain that I didn't play in the verse as it sounded too quiet. But I don't anyway, sounds wrong to me. I sit there glaring at my 17th fret, daring it to try and get away from my finger later.

[Ricky 4000]

1 hour ago, mcnach said:

 

Drunk audiences can tolerate almost anything, it's true. But I don't agree about the "covers should be different".

They  CAN be different, and that's great when done well. However most people I hear saying "the cover should be different" or "we play our own version" really what they're doing is saying those words to justify their being lazy. 

I'm not saying that's what your attitude is, since I don't know you  just stating my experiences

I suppose it's "a very expansive question", with many possible answers depending on the ifs and buts. 😊

IMHO, learning somebody else's bass parts from  hit records (accurately) is often a great learning experience in itself.

If you're going to go on and cover certain songs in a band, then there's a huge possible checklist and/or flowchart could be filled out... 

What's best? Depends on the band!?

Possible outcome:

 

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, mcnach said:

... most people I hear saying "the cover should be different" or "we play our own version" really what they're doing is saying those words to justify their being lazy...

We play our own version for two main reasons (there are often others...). Firstly, we may not (in fact probably don't have...) the instruments of the original. Example: our singer does a vocal impression of the trombone solo in Beds Are Burning. We once had a few mates on stage with us as a horn section, and it was glorious, but without them, it's 'Parp Parp' from the singer. Secondly, I play drums. I'm (modestly...) quite good, but not up to Soundgarden standards, so I simplify the fills when necessary. RATM I can handle, or Muse, but SOAD has some pretty technical stuff going on, for which there's not enough years left in me to learn. I do what I can with 'em (and it's not catastrophic, just simplified...). Sometimes we just do it differently because we like it better our way, of course. No, it's not laziness. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Dad3353

[skankdelvar]

34 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

No, it's not laziness.

Indeed not, because you and your ensemble have collectively, consciously and deliberately re-arranged the songs as opposed to the situation where nobody knows how the song goes and everybody tries to follow a guitarist who can't remember the chords. 

I mean, sweet Jeebus, this 'what comes next?' thing even happened to me in a bass / acoustic guitar / voice trio. In a band where there were only two instrumentalists (him and me) the guitard played each song differently every time which seriously screwed the singer because she was reading the lyrics off her phone.

That one ended when I screamed at the guitard: 'Will you please make your f**king mind up what chords you're going to play and in which order?' and he replied 'I can play it alright on my mandolin'.

Edited January 20, 2019 by skankdelvar

[Dad3353]

3 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

...he replied 'I can play it alright on my mandolin'.

Which begs the retort: 'You can play it alright on your own, then..!' 

[skankdelvar]

10 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Which begs the retort: 'You can play it alright on your own, then..!' 

TBPH, I stuck with it for a few rehearsals because the singer had a great voice and I was (in an act of characteristic treachery) lining someone up to replace the guitarist. Then I discovered the singer didn't want to gig so there was no longer any point in concealing my displeasure.

Edited January 20, 2019 by skankdelvar

[dmccombe7]

All of the covers we do were singles in 70's and usual endings were faded out. We had to derive our own endings without making them sound the same no matter who the band was. That is down to what "feels right between us" We try a few different endings for a song and then agree on best option. We record that version for our own records for the next reherasal to make sure there's no debate which is very rare anyway in this band.

On a few of the solo's we had to re-arrange to suit our instruments too but the general feel and sound of the songs needs to remain true to the original. Occassional ad-lib notes from someone during a rocking out section is accepted when you get in the zone but only if it suits and fits with the song. If it doesn't one of the other guys will say so and suggest not to play that particular run again. That's quite rare tho.

We specifically aim to capture the parts that people will know ie the guitar riff in the instrumental section of Jean Genie needs to be exact as people recognise that.

Siren in Blockbuster people remember so we ensure that's in the song. We're not a tribute band but we are aiming to replicate the originals as near poassible.

Dave

[Skinnyman]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

. I sit there glaring at my 17th fret, daring it to try and get away from my finger later.

I used to have a real block with the solo in that song. Could play it perfectly at home or in rehearsal, always made a complete Horlicks of it at a gig.

I've finally got past that now but i still shudder at the memory of the car crashes

[Count Bassy]

I am trying to follow the philosophy of worry about things you can influence, e.g. your own band and your own playing, and not the things you can't i.e other peole bands and other peoples playing (and, yes Brexit).

[arthurhenry]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

We play the version from the album, as that is what I am used to, although the crowd seem to expect the single and start singing the alright now after the solo.

They used to complain that I didn't play in the verse as it sounded too quiet. But I don't anyway, sounds wrong to me. I sit there glaring at my 17th fret, daring it to try and get away from my finger later.

And of course you play the rhythm on the open A underneath the high notes. Many bass players just leave it out.

[dmccombe7]

1 minute ago, arthurhenry said:

And of course you play the rhythm on the open A underneath the high notes. Many bass players just leave it out.

Yep that's the tricky part playing that A. Took me ages to get that right by watching VID clips of Andy Fraser playing it. I just knew i was missing something until i saw him actually play it slowly on a documentary clip. He had a similar technique to Jack Bruce using fingers and thumb. Hugely talented bass player and songwriter.

Dave

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, arthurhenry said:

And of course you play the rhythm on the open A underneath the high notes. Many bass players just leave it out.

the bottom bit? how can you miss that out?

you mean the:

G|————-—19———--—19--—| 
D|-—17———-—-16—-———--| 
A|————0———0———0—---0—| 
E|—————————————-----—|

part? (sometimes with fewer open notes). Surely there is a whole part missing if you leave the A out, and as it is open it is pretty easy to do considering how far you have just dashed across the neck to get there. 

But now you mentioned it, I went and looked at the tab sites (that I have not done for that song before) and sure enough, its not there. And then some of the youtube tracks too are wrong, which are odd because it is easy to see him playing it in some of the videos.

[dmccombe7]

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

the bottom bit? how can you miss that out?

you mean the:

G|————-—19———--—19--—| 
D|-—17———-—-16—-———--| 
A|————0———0———0—---0—| 
E|—————————————-----—|

part? (sometimes with fewer open notes). Surely there is a whole part missing if you leave the A out, and as it is open it is pretty easy to do considering how far you have just dashed across the neck to get there. 

But now you mentioned it, I went and looked at the tab sites (that I have not done for that song before) and sure enough, its not there. And then some of the youtube tracks too are wrong, which are odd because it is easy to see him playing it in some of the videos.

That's the 1st time i've seen the A on a bass tab.

[Woodinblack]

Just now, dmccombe7 said:

That's the 1st time i've seen the A on a bass tab.

Yeh - thats just because I put it in. I went and looked and they were missing it.

Reminds me we were doing a gig somewhere and there was a guy in the audience from another local band (was their drummer but also plays bass himself). Afterwards congratulated me on good playing, saying he was impressed that I had put that fill in before the solo in 'Are you going my way' because he hadn't heard another band do that. I was surprised at that because it is an obvious feature of the song and basically tells the guitarist that it is time for the solo (which matters if yours is as good as counting as ours!).

[dmccombe7]

9 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Yeh - thats just because I put it in. I went and looked and they were missing it.

Reminds me we were doing a gig somewhere and there was a guy in the audience from another local band (was their drummer but also plays bass himself). Afterwards congratulated me on good playing, saying he was impressed that I had put that fill in before the solo in 'Are you going my way' because he hadn't heard another band do that. I was surprised at that because it is an obvious feature of the song and basically tells the guitarist that it is time for the solo (which matters if yours is as good as counting as ours!).

Had to go and listen to that song. I'm guessing its Lenny Kravitz. I know the song but never really listened to it much but i hear the little quiet bass run before the solo. Nice song to play too.

Dave

[Norris]

IMHO there is a world of difference between deliberately changing i.e. arranging, and CBA to learn it. #nutshell

[Woodinblack]

35 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Had to go and listen to that song. I'm guessing its Lenny Kravitz. I know the song but never really listened to it much but i hear the little quiet bass run before the solo. Nice song to play too.

Yes, that one, simple song mostly but timing is everything. And during the solo there is a completely opposite bass solo going on at the same time, which I enjoy. 

[Monkey Steve]

Of course, sometimes it's down to the limitations of one or more band members.

I was in a metal covers band, and me, the drummer and the lead guitarist would assiduously learn the recorded versions of the songs (me and the drummer especially...the lead guitarist had an awful sense of rhythm so sometimes his phrasing was a little off, albeit that he would have the right chords).  Then we had the rhythm guitarist, who was a great bloke, but very much there to make up the numbers.  The irony was that he probably worked harder than anybody else in the band, and was playing to his absolute limit at all times...just his limit was quite often below the level required to play the song correctly.

He'd the resort to tabs when playing the songs at home, and if he got an arrangement into his head it would stick there - more than once we spent a good chunk of time correcting what he was doing at a practice, it would sound great, then next week he'd come to practice and play it the wrong way again.

We recorded a demo - all I can say is thank the deity of your choice for Pro Tools

[dmccombe7]

27 minutes ago, Monkey Steve said:

Of course, sometimes it's down to the limitations of one or more band members.

I was in a metal covers band, and me, the drummer and the lead guitarist would assiduously learn the recorded versions of the songs (me and the drummer especially...the lead guitarist had an awful sense of rhythm so sometimes his phrasing was a little off, albeit that he would have the right chords).  Then we had the rhythm guitarist, who was a great bloke, but very much there to make up the numbers.  The irony was that he probably worked harder than anybody else in the band, and was playing to his absolute limit at all times...just his limit was quite often below the level required to play the song correctly.

He'd the resort to tabs when playing the songs at home, and if he got an arrangement into his head it would stick there - more than once we spent a good chunk of time correcting what he was doing at a practice, it would sound great, then next week he'd come to practice and play it the wrong way again.

We recorded a demo - all I can say is thank the deity of your choice for Pro Tools

I've been in bands where someone was a little weaker than others and i enjoyed it because we all worked towards making the best of what we had. It can take a little more work and a little longer to get to gigging status but if its fun and enjoyable i stick with it. As long as everyone is putting in the same or similar effort i'd be ok with that altho these days i'm more used to a level of playing and commitment similar to my own. I guess that's maybe because as the age group i play with we have all gained a fair bit of experience and know our instruments quite well. That's one of the benefits of being a more mature player  

Love that Pro Tools comment 

Dave

[bassjim]

Excellent topic! Yeah loads to rant about...

My 2p worth:

When depping:

I think this problem exists on so many levels. There is a CBA attitude from players and singers that are just plain and simple lazy. They could do it but just CBA. I'm all up for going off on a tangent or doing your own thing (I do this my self) but only after actually knowing the material first.  These changes would have  been discussed and arranged first.

Then theres' the not really good enough players, so songs have been adapted to suit. ie: Fred cant play the drum part properly in the mid 8 of I Want You Back or the singer just cant get a grip of when to shut up for the solo of whatever ,so the band have skipped that bit out. Problem is that band have done it like that now for so long even they have forgotten they have changed it. Its only on the gig that anyone thinks 'oh yeah should have mentioned that.'

Or the band are made up of not so good or experienced players so they are blissfully unaware of just how inaccurate they are.

Or....getting my handbag out for this one.....

Bands that are made up of reasonably good players but really are all depping as part of a clique group within a town. No one really learns the material because 'y'know...im just too busy gigging everywhere all the time man. I just like ..y'know.. turn up and jam it out. Just follow the singer..'  The very same singer that is reading lyrics off a smart phone and pointing at players at various places in the song where they really have no idea what the flipjs going on .... "its time for a solo...on the bass here's...."  Its almost excusable if this really was a one off thrown together scratch band but the reality is these very same small clique bunch are in fact playing/busking/jamming out/ faking it/ the same material for the last 10 years.  Shame as most of them are in fact great players but would never lower themselves to get in a room together  and nail the tunes down.   Meeowwwww!!!! 

Even worse:  If its your own band...

Players that think ..if a new tune sounds like it might work in a rehearsal....THEN and only then go away and learn it properly!!!

The very same players that haven't learnt the tune properly then go.....'I dont think that will work. It sounds a bit lame.'  Or.....'yeah that sounds like it could work. I'll have my sh8t together for next time.' Next time .....nope. Still haven't learnt it.

Or

I turn up having learnt a tune inside out only to get into a debate about how something goes and the person leading the debate with me hasn't learnt it properly. Then its out with the smart phone to prove points which really means  'I'll quickly see if I can learn this on the spot'.

Or   

Prior to playing new tune.......'whats that bit in the middle 8 again? Can we go over that 20 odd times so I can be sure?'

Passion. You have it or you dont have it.

 

That feels much better now. Thank you.