Bands that wont learn covers properly.

[dmccombe7]

I can relate to so many of your points its funny to read it all laid out.

To be fair i've not come across the clique of musicians that busk it or wing it as that's not really my scene but the rest is brilliant observation and well put together comments. Liking that. 

Dave

[KevB]

Alright now is always a bit of a bone of contention. I think part of the problem is that most guitarists have Kossof's lovely big fat sound in their heads whilst in fact what is coming from their cheap strat copy through weedy processing and backline is something rather different. As a result some bass players feel almost obliged to fill the sound out in some way and I've had to do that backing some folk while in the house band at open mic sessions. Fortunately the current covers band boasts 2 respectable guitar players and while neither of them tote les paul's the sound is big enough on the occasions we play this one for me to wait until the chorus kicks in as it should be. There are about 4 different recorded versions of this song even by Free themselves so theres scope for quite a variety of mash-ups in the arrangement for covers versions.

On a more general note I used to be quite slavish about trying to get things note for note as per original but I've learned to be able to cut myself a bit of slack and play some stuff that I will never get 100% right but is close enough to satisfy the audience and other band members alike. Good example being Fool For Your Loving. Interestingly I happened upon a live rendition of this from the previous band I was in and the guy that replaced me plays a much more simplified version of the bassline yet I recall the bandleader having a moan at me that I wasn't playing it quite right ! The current band are more than happy about the way I play it, especially as I've started adding a bit of organ here and there on midi pedals.

[Guest subaudio]

1 hour ago, Monkey Steve said:

Of course, sometimes it's down to the limitations of one or more band members.

I was in a metal covers band, and me, the drummer and the lead guitarist would assiduously learn the recorded versions of the songs (me and the drummer especially...the lead guitarist had an awful sense of rhythm so sometimes his phrasing was a little off, albeit that he would have the right chords).  Then we had the rhythm guitarist, who was a great bloke, but very much there to make up the numbers.  The irony was that he probably worked harder than anybody else in the band, and was playing to his absolute limit at all times...just his limit was quite often below the level required to play the song correctly.

He'd the resort to tabs when playing the songs at home, and if he got an arrangement into his head it would stick there - more than once we spent a good chunk of time correcting what he was doing at a practice, it would sound great, then next week he'd come to practice and play it the wrong way again.

We recorded a demo - all I can say is thank the deity of your choice for Pro Tools

Ah yes, the whole other topic of guitar players with no rhythm, who excuse it by saying they are playing with "feel"

Its perhaps the thing in bands that winds me up the most.

If you can't play exactly, consistently in time with a metronome and exactly, consistently in front of the metronome and exactly, consistently behind the metronome, you are not playing with feel, your playing sloppily.

I love a trier, I'll do everything I can to support a trier.

A lazy, deluded, egotist, non listener on the other hand....

[Monkey Steve]

42 minutes ago, subaudio said:

Ah yes, the whole other topic of guitar players with no rhythm, who excuse it by saying they are playing with "feel"

Its perhaps the thing in bands that winds me up the most.

If you can't play exactly, consistently in time with a metronome and exactly, consistently in front of the metronome and exactly, consistently behind the metronome, you are not playing with feel, your playing sloppily.

I love a trier, I'll do everything I can to support a trier.

A lazy, deluded, egotist, non listener on the other hand....

the worst one was The Trooper - the combination of the lead guitarist's lack of feel and timing, and the rhythm guitarist's lack of talent, the harmony guitar parts, while technically having the correct notes in the correct order and with the correct harmony intervals, all sound abysmal, like they are playing a completely different melody which is a problem when people are supposed to recognise the song.  It was one of the tracks on our demo, and the lead makes up for it by playing a brilliant, note perfect solo...he then lets the rhythm guitarist has a go for the second solo and it undoes all of that good work, like somebody with broken fingers falling down the stairs

[martthebass]

These days I take a fairly laid back approach to covers in cover bands.  As long as the version is sufficiently accurate that the audience is entertained and gets the desired reaction then I'm happy.  I've seen too many bands waste loads of time trying to achieve perfection to the point that they never get out gigging or argue incessantly over details that only a vanishingly small percentage of the crowd would notice.

[ubit]

7 minutes ago, martthebass said:

argue incessantly over details that only a vanishingly small percentage of the crowd would notice.

Hear hear!

[JapanAxe]

For many years I have transcribed the guitar and/or bass parts in standard notation for most of songs I am intending to play live. I find this hugely beneficial because:

1. I have a permanent record to refer to in the future if needed;
2. It is great training for the ear;
3. I have improved at it over the years;
4. I can have confidence in playing the right part;
5. The last 15 years' worth are in Sibelius format, so I can quickly and easily transpose them to other keys if required;
6. If it's a gig where music stands are acceptable, I can read the PDF files from my iPad; and
7. If I need to dep out a gig to another reader, I can send them the PDFs in the right keys.

Works for me.

 

[bassjim]

1 minute ago, JapanAxe said:

For many years I have transcribed the guitar and/or bass parts in standard notation for most of songs I am intending to play live. I find this hugely beneficial because:

1. I have a permanent record to refer to in the future if needed;
2. It is great training for the ear;
3. I have improved at it over the years;
4. I can have confidence in playing the right part;
5. The last 15 years' worth are in Sibelius format, so I can quickly and easily transpose them to other keys if required;
6. If it's a gig where music stands are acceptable, I can read the PDF files from my iPad; and
7. If I need to dep out a gig to another reader, I can send them the PDFs in the right keys.

Works for me.

 

This is called having your sh8t together. 

[lozkerr]

7 minutes ago, bassjim said:

This is called having your sh8t together. 

I do the same thing, largely because I just cannot get on with tabs (and that's without their being wrong / tabbed for a four-string when I play a five / not having the rhythm done properly if at all / being broken into silly little chunks that don't flow / flippant comments from the author that they CBA working out fills etc etc). I suspect it's because I learned to read music when I was quite young and found myself instinctively following the stave when I was learning from a tutor book. Even when I find a good tab on Songsterr, I'll fire up MuseScore and write out a stave before trying to play it. 

It's been a wee bit o a slog, but it's helped immensely, especially when playing from scores that were written for a piano and having to transpose them on the fly.

[BigRedX]

The thing is, there are covers bands and there are bands that play covers.

I've played in bands where everyone has gone away and learnt note for note what is on the record, and it still sounds wrong because the band can't reproduce every overdubbed part from the studio recording when they only have one or two guitarists plus bass and drums. A lot of the time (mostly on songs from the 60s and 70s) I find that what is perceived as the "bass part" is actually the keyboard players left hand and on the original, the bass guitar tends to be noodling away in the rhythm guitar range rather than holding down the bottom end. I found on these songs learning the bass guitar part was a waste of time and they would sound much better if I played the left hand of the keyboard part with any prominent bass guitar runs (usually those where there was no singing) thrown in. 

Even on those songs where the original bands instrumentation was the same as ours you still can't reproduce every overdub from the record, and playing every single complex fill and run on the bass, would detract from the main job of the rhythm section - getting the song to drive along. In the end I found it far more effective to learn and simplified version of the bass part and then add the more complex stuff back in if it was noticeably missing when we rehearsed the song with the whole band.

I aslo discovered that the previous bass player from the covers band that was most particular about getting the arrangement right from the recording, had produced bass parts that had only a passing resemblance to what was on the original. A fact that I had never spotted, until I started learning the songs myself, despite seeing the band with him play on many occasions before I joined.

I've also played in bands whose covers only used the lyrics and vocal melody from the original and the rest of the arrangement was new. Quite a lot of the time I have only had a passing knowledge of the original song and sometimes I completely unfamiliar with it, so in these situations I have tended to approach the song as though it was any other new original song and play what I felt was right for the arrangement as it developed. If I knew the song well enough to know that there was something missing at the bottom end, I would add it in but otherwise I did my own thing. 

TBH I enjoyed this approach far more, and IME the audiences were no less enthusiastic in their reception than if we had learnt the song note for note from the best known recording.

[dmccombe7]

where do you draw the line in reproducing the exact original as i play fingerstyle and many of the original bands i cover used a pick.

I can use my index finger or thumb as a pick but i'm far more comfortable using fingerstyle and unless stipulated by other band members i'll stick with what i prefer. 

Perhaps that's just taking things to extreme and more what a tribute band might consider. 

Dave

 

[ubit]

It doesn't have to be exactly like the original

 

 

[Bass Culture]

I was looking forward to last year's Christmas works do as we were booked into somewhere with a band on.  That was until I heard said band launch into their tired rendition of 'Johnny B. Goode' quickly followed by 'I Saw Her Standing There', in which the bass player decided Macca had missed a trick by not slapping his way through it.  I wanted to throw a chair at him...

[Woodinblack]

6 hours ago, KevB said:

Alright now is always a bit of a bone of contention. I think part of the problem is that most guitarists have Kossof's lovely big fat sound in their heads whilst in fact what is coming from their cheap strat copy through weedy processing and backline is something rather different.

`I am sure you could do it well with that equipment. Our guitarist has a 57 LP and an orange amp. It doesn't sound the same (although to be fair, it is one of his strongest solos).

 

6 hours ago, KevB said:

On a more general note I used to be quite slavish about trying to get things note for note as per original but I've learned to be able to cut myself a bit of slack and play some stuff that I will never get 100% right but is close enough to satisfy the audience and other band members alike. Good example being Fool For Your Loving. 

I am not slavish but fool for your loving is one of those that I would play mostly like the record, because I enjoy playing it. I tricked myself into playing it, some asked me to do it and I thought 'pfft, its whitesnake, how hard could it be', then I listened and had a bit of a panic

Then I learned it and they decided not to do it, but i still play it quite often as an exercise piece.

[acidbass]

A real pet hate of mine is bands who just throw songs together and busk them without actually ever really learning the nuances.  You are 100% right in your observations.  I've had to compromise many times by playing progressions that I just know are plain wrong, just because the guitarist hasn't bothered his derrière to learn the right chords.  It seems to be more prevalent in 2/3 piece pub acts where most punters only care about roaring the melody after a skinful.  I decided a couple of years ago not to accept mediocrity anymore when learning a song with a band and have been vocal when I have needed to be when things are going wrong.  Probably hasn't made me any friends but I don't care, it's the most conscientious of musicians who respect an honest approach and those are the ones I would rather gig with anyway.

[ubit]

Fool for your loving is a great bassline. We tried it, but as I'm the singer too, it was too hard to sing and play. I could do the verses, but the chorus just stumped me as it was getting too busy.

[ubit]

33 minutes ago, Bass Culture said:

I was looking forward to last year's Christmas works do as we were booked into somewhere with a band on.  That was until I heard said band launch into their tired rendition of 'Johnny B. Goode' quickly followed by 'I Saw Her Standing There', in which the bass player decided Macca had missed a trick by not slapping his way through it.  I wanted to throw a chair at him...

In whatever universe does someone think slap bass fits in a Beatles song? 😒

[ahpook]

23 minutes ago, ubit said:

In whatever universe does someone think slap bass fits in a Beatles song? 😒

Aaaaah, you see, this is why I've avoided learning how to play slap bass.

A prerequisite for thinking that a slap bass fits in a Beatles song is knowing how to play slap bass.

It's the devil's road, slap bass....the devil's road.

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by ahpook

[ubit]

On 19/01/2019 at 18:26, Paul S said:

He insists on playing over the breakdown where there should be no guitar.  Kills the song stone dead by taking away the light and shade.  There, unloaded that, feels much better [/rant] 

That reminds me of when we used to play regularly. We played with an accordion player, as we mixed Scottish trad. with our rock and pop set. He would ( on paper) sit out the rock stuff, but no, he insisted on vamping over the top of just about EVERY song we did! It used to drive me up the feckin' wall! Lots of hard driving rock songs with bloody accordion featuring! 😡

[dmccombe7]

32 minutes ago, ubit said:

Fool for your loving is a great bassline. We tried it, but as I'm the singer too, it was too hard to sing and play. I could do the verses, but the chorus just stumped me as it was getting too busy.

I saw a youtube VID of Neil playing this at an open air gig using his Kramer bass and the tone was sublime. Crystal clear and so easy to hear his fills. He jas admitted on here that he ad-libs a bit when playing it live so the fills aren't always the same but they are all exceptional and just great when you get the famous ones just right.

Dave 

[Dad3353]

26 minutes ago, ahpook said:

Aaaaah, you see, this is why I've avoided learning how to play slap bass.

A prerequisite for thinking that a slap bass fits in a Beatles song is knowing how to play slap bass.

It's the devil's road, slap bass....the devil's road...

Not at all. Thinking that a slap bass fits in a Beatles song could well be the stimulus required to learn how to do it, no..? 

I agree about it being the devil's road, of course. 

[ubit]

3 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Not at all. Thinking that a slap bass fits in a Beatles song could well be the stimulus required to learn how to do it, no..? 

I agree about it being the devil's road, of course. 

I'm sorry, but the thought of slap bass in any song from the '60s, fills me with the boaks. Not that I like the Beatles, but to slap over their music is just wrong! 😂

[Dad3353]

28 minutes ago, ubit said:

I'm sorry, but the thought of slap bass in any song from the '60s, fills me with the boaks. Not that I like the Beatles, but to slap over their music is just wrong! 😂

No, you're right, naturally, but it's not necessary to know how to do it before having the sordid idea, that's all I was suggesting. Some folks are crazy, s'all..! 

[PaulWarning]

1 hour ago, ubit said:

That reminds me of when we used to play regularly. We played with an accordion player, as we mixed Scottish trad. with our rock and pop set. He would ( on paper) sit out the rock stuff, but no, he insisted on vamping over the top of just about EVERY song we did! It used to drive me up the feckin' wall! Lots of hard driving rock songs with bloody accordion featuring! 😡

can work

 

[MartinB]

There are many reasons to play your own thing, and they're not all bad:

• Because the whole band has completely rearranged the song in a different style, and truly made it their own. Great! If no-one ever did this, musical history would be stagnant.
• Because the original part is full of variations and was probably improvised, and you're not in a warts-and-all tribute band. And none of those variations are prominent hooks that people will miss. No problem! The only people who'll notice are other bass players 😉
• Because the band has had to rearrange the song to work with the instrumentation that you have, and so you're pretending to be a synthesizer or a piano player's left hand. Or there was no bass part to begin with, so you've made up something that fits the style. Okay!
• Because, as an amateur, you don't have the ability to play it "right" yet - but you're working on it. Fine!
• Because you're tone-deaf and you genuinely can't tell that you've got it wrong. Understandable! But perhaps music isn't the right hobby for you 😅
• Because you think the original part is boring to play, and your own entertainment is more important to you than the audience's. It depends! Do you have taste and restraint, and have you come up with something that is sympathetic and doesn't trample over the song? Hint: Slap bass is never the correct answer!
• Because you know it's wrong, but you're too lazy to learn it and "the punters won't know the difference". Questionable! Kinda feels like you're insulting both the audience and the original artist 🤨
• Because you've just learned how to slap / tap / sweep pick / etc. and you are determined to shoehorn it in wherever possible. Nope!

I think that's why this is such a contentious topic whenever it comes up - folks assume we're all talking about the same thing, and some of them take it personally.

I don't think anyone's got a problem with cutting down a long song, or repeating bits of a very short one, or making up an ending for something that fades out on the record. That's just practical.