Bands that wont learn covers properly.

[steantval]

20 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

I play in a pub covers band. At our very first jam/tryout session, the lead guitarist - who is a very talented prog rocker/Yngve Malmsteen admirer -  said: "I'd like to join, but I want to be challenged". I commented that perhaps a pub covers band wouldn't "challenge" him. Two years later, the band is still trying to play together as a unit, picking up 4 or 5 gigs a year, while congratulating itself on the high level of musicianship; "We play the songs better than nearly all the other local covers bands. Can't really understand why we don't get gigs" I'm the main gig-hunter. I despair.The guitarist insists on playing mega-widdly solos to just about every song. We play Kiss (the song, not the band), and he goes off on a prog-rock solo. I despair. Why does he do this? Because learning the guitar parts to cover songs like Oasis doesn't "challenge" him, and he sees it as beneath him. Similar story with our drummer who, whenever he can, plays double-kick bass to funk and soul songs. I despair. These people are completely capable of learning their parts to cover songs but they don't, because they see that as uninteresting and somewhat beneath them. Interestingly, both of these people arrived at the band having just left originals bands. I'm not sure whether that's relevant, but I suspect it is.

Can’t understand why you are still playing with those guys for just 4 or 5 gigs per year, find yourself another band that will give you more enjoyment.

[solo4652]

32 minutes ago, Muzz said:

The best dep guitarist I've ever played with could switch from genre to genre, and every one sounded authentic; the tones, the feel, the way he played. He was a chameleon (not the band, tho they are from round here) : you would never know what his favourite genre was just by listening to and watching him play.

A rare bird, I'd say! Our guitarist is certainly capable of that but, most of the time, he chooses not to. He doesn't "learn his parts" - he plays what he wants to play, not what the song needs him to play. I despair.

Edited February 7, 2019 by solo4652

[Leonard Smalls]

9 minutes ago, steantval said:

Similar story with our drummer who, whenever he can, plays double-kick bass to funk and soul songs. I despair.

I know a drummer who does just that - his excuse is "Dennis Chambers uses double bass pedals". Difference is that Dennis Chambers plays what the song needs rather than what he thinks is going to impress folks... Dennis can impress any time by just doing a tiny fill - he doesn't need to do a double whupdedoodlediddle which invariably over-runs by nearly a beat putting everybody else off, nor does he think that funk drumming is only the version of the funky drummer riff as popularised by the Stone Roses. Nor does Dennis speed up by 5-10bpm during a song!

 

[TimR]

It used to frustrate me in previous bands. 

Often it was double standards. The drummer would tell everyone else they were playing it wrong and then stamp all over vocal lines with unnessacary fills. 

Now we just pick a tune, bare bones the chords at home and then busk through it in practice. If a tune works, then we spend a bit longer working on details and add extra if it’s sounding empty and sometimes simplifying whole sections to make them sound fuller. Often a bass lick only works when sitting on top of brass, keys, strings and multiple layers of vocals. When there’s just a guitar and bass, you sometimes have to sacrifice quite a bit.

Learning a tune exactly as the original very rarely works and in the end as has been said before it’ll suffer from mission creep the more you play it. 

[dmccombe7]

Its the one thing i find challenging when moving away from my usual Classic Rock background that i have to lighten my touch and play whats needed with a different feel. More groove than power. 

If i play a cover then i like it to be as near the original feel as possible. Not specifically note for note but the general feel and structure of the song needs to be there.

I couldn't put up with a prima donna that thinks his guitar solos are better than the original version or that everyone wants to hear a constant Mamsteen solo in every song. That for me is boring in a band. A guitarist that can adapt is a godsend and makes learning and playing songs far more enjoyable.

Dave

 

[BigRedX]

14 minutes ago, TimR said:

Now we just pick a tune, bare bones the chords at home and then busk through it in practice. If a tune works, then we spend a bit longer working on details and add extra if it’s sounding empty and sometimes simplifying whole sections to make them sound fuller. Often a bass lick only works when sitting on top of brass, keys, strings and multiple layers of vocals. When there’s just a guitar and bass, you sometimes have to sacrifice quite a bit.

This is what I was planning to say but TimR has already said it and a lot more succinctly and eloquently than I would have.

IMO that is all this thread needs.

[Guest subaudio]

3 hours ago, Muzz said:

There's a book of jazz standards? Nominally interesting, but completely irrelevant to my music and playing...

The point is It's about the importance of ear training, listening.

[solo4652]

32 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

If i play a cover then i like it to be as near the original feel as possible. Not specifically note for note but the general feel and structure of the song needs to be there.

Yes. That's it. right there.

[steantval]

2 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

I know a drummer who does just that - his excuse is "Dennis Chambers uses double bass pedals". Difference is that Dennis Chambers plays what the song needs rather than what he thinks is going to impress folks... Dennis can impress any time by just doing a tiny fill - he doesn't need to do a double whupdedoodlediddle which invariably over-runs by nearly a beat putting everybody else off, nor does he think that funk drumming is only the version of the funky drummer riff as popularised by the Stone Roses. Nor does Dennis speed up by 5-10bpm during a song!

 

Incorrect quote, not me who said that, nowt wrong with our drummer.

[ubit]

3 hours ago, solo4652 said:

Agreed. They're not very good at playing in a pub covers band. I'm definitely the least musically talented/technically capable person in the band. I've enjoyed learning basslines to reggae, soul, funk, soft-rock, pop, indie, and country songs. I'm sure that I don't play the bassline exactly as per the original on any song, but what I do play works well enough for where we play, and what I play fits the vibe of the original song. In my experience of covers bands, that's a where many people lose the plot - they don't learn their parts because they're more interested in playing their instruments than playing the song. When our lead guitarist reins himself in, he can play very tasteful licks and solos, and the result is sublime. But he's bored  by that.

Well said this man 👆

[ubit]

2 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

I couldn't put up with a prima donna that thinks his guitar solos are better than the original version or that everyone wants to hear a constant Mamsteen solo in every song. That for me is boring in a band. A guitarist that can adapt is a godsend and makes learning and playing songs far more enjoyable.

This is so true. Professional players when they record a piece, will have ,apart from their band mates, a producer, who will guide them in what sounds good. Sometimes less is more. When some wannabe decides there’s not enough notes in that solo, it can ruin what was once a masterpiece. Bass is a perfect example of an instrument that should be felt and not over used. Obviously, there are exceptions and who doesn’t love a decent bass line, but when someone puts fills in all over the place or uses a five string for a classic four string song , it can sound too much. 

[ubit]

I love to practice challenging bass lines, but I’m equally happy to play plodding bass lines in a song if it’s what is needed. 

Girls dancing and admiring you was what made me want play live in the first place, so my soul was sold a long time ago. 

[tauzero]

On 06/02/2019 at 13:26, Deanol said:

I suppose that's the difference. I never hated that sort of material. I enjoyed listening to it. Even now I can still enjoy "Hi-Ho Silver Lining" even though I played it at the end of virtually every Friday and Saturday night set in the pubs and club of South Yorkshire, Derbyshire, North Nottinghamshire, and North Lincolnshire for decades.

I'm so glad there's someone else that doesn't hate it. I thought it was my guilty secret.

If the audience don't like what you're playing, and you're playing it well, it's not a problem with either you or the audience. The problem is that you're playing to the wrong audience. And if you're playing to a lowest-common-denominator audience, unless you're really up yourself [1], you can play songs which you at the very least don't hate but which the audience will love. My covers band plays a couple of UB40 songs but we wouldn't touch "Red Red Fscking Whine" with a bargepole. I think (and hope) the guitarist has now abandoned the idea of doing "Youm Sex Am On Foyur" [2] - a song which gets a lot of slagging off, but the original isn't too bad. Haven't ever heard a cover that does it justice, TBH, including any of my bands that did it.

[1] Whatever did happen to Edward Himself, or Young Up, as I used to think of him?

[2] As referred to by a singer I once worked with - she was from Oldbury

[dmccombe7]

1 hour ago, ubit said:

I love to practice challenging bass lines, but I’m equally happy to play plodding bass lines in a song if it’s what is needed. 

Girls dancing and admiring you was what made me want play live in the first place, so my soul was sold a long time ago. 

Few yrs ago i was in a band that was playing Doobie Brothers style with some really nice bass runs to enjoy also did Steamy Windows of Tina Turner fame. The bass line was really simple but i just loved playing that song. The energy you could produce with that song just gave me a fantastic boost. One of those "happy" songs. 

Dave 

[Bluewine]

On 06/02/2019 at 07:55, Leonard Smalls said:

I've never been willing to play material I don't like. 

Some of us don't have that option. If I played music I like I'd be broke and unable to pay my bills.

Blue

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

Few yrs ago i was in a band that was playing Doobie Brothers style with some really nice bass runs to enjoy also did Steamy Windows of Tina Turner fame. The bass line was really simple but i just loved playing that song. The energy you could produce with that song just gave me a fantastic boost. One of those "happy" songs.

I used to love doing "She sells sanctuary" for the same reason - dead simple bass line but lots of energy. And "With or without you" was a great exercise in passion.

[tauzero]

The covers band I'm in is never going to sound like the original - lineup is guitar/vox, keyboards, bass, percussion (bongoes and cajon). Added to that, our guitarist can strum only a limited number of chords - he can't play bar chords and can't fingerpick. Keyboardist is brilliant but not used to playing with a bassist, so we're gradually sorting that out (good-naturedly, I may say). We keep close to the original arrangements and play songs which aren't going to expose the obvious absences of lead guitar and drummer too much, which does mean that keys and me take on somewhat different roles to the originals. So we're not learning note for note, but it's more like a disassembly and reassembly operating within our constraints than not learning it right.

[Bluewine]

3 hours ago, tauzero said:

The covers band I'm in is never going to sound like the original - lineup is guitar/vox, keyboards, bass, percussion (bongoes and cajon). Added to that, our guitarist can strum only a limited number of chords - he can't play bar chords and can't fingerpick. Keyboardist is brilliant but not used to playing with a bassist, so we're gradually sorting that out (good-naturedly, I may say). We keep close to the original arrangements and play songs which aren't going to expose the obvious absences of lead guitar and drummer too much, which does mean that keys and me take on somewhat different roles to the originals. So we're not learning note for note, but it's more like a disassembly and reassembly operating within our constraints than not learning it right.

Recordings have multiple guitar and vocal tracks that are a challenge for those of us in bar and dance hall bands.

Would you a agree that playing covers is a different issue than leaning covers?

Blue

[PaulWarning]

7 hours ago, tauzero said:

The covers band I'm in is never going to sound like the original - lineup is guitar/vox, keyboards, bass, percussion (bongoes and cajon). Added to that, our guitarist can strum only a limited number of chords - he can't play bar chords and can't fingerpick. Keyboardist is brilliant but not used to playing with a bassist, so we're gradually sorting that out (good-naturedly, I may say). We keep close to the original arrangements and play songs which aren't going to expose the obvious absences of lead guitar and drummer too much, which does mean that keys and me take on somewhat different roles to the originals. So we're not learning note for note, but it's more like a disassembly and reassembly operating within our constraints than not learning it right.

Guitarist that can't play barre chords? and I thought my guitar playing was limited

[ubit]

13 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

Guitarist that can't play barre chords? and I thought my guitar playing was limited

Some music might be folk or trad oriented, so open chords might be all they need. Bar chords are not the be all and end all. I’ve always been a bassist, but I learned bar chords before I could play open chords on a guitar. 

[PaulWarning]

48 minutes ago, ubit said:

Some music might be folk or trad oriented, so open chords might be all they need. Bar chords are not the be all and end all. I’ve always been a bassist, but I learned bar chords before I could play open chords on a guitar. 

I was the same, in fact when I first learnt guitar I tuned it to E and just used one finger to barre the bottom three strings, proper punk rock , but I know what you mean I use open chords on acoustic except where I've no choice like the pesky B and Bb chords

Edited February 8, 2019 by PaulWarning

[TimR]

9 hours ago, Bluewine said:

Some of us don't have that option. If I played music I like I'd be broke and unable to pay my bills.

Blue

I’m sure there are a few old timers who still enjoy a bit of The Beatles.  

[ubit]

10 hours ago, Bluewine said:

Some of us don't have that option. If I played music I like I'd be broke and unable to pay my bills.

Blue

Exactly! Round here , there are possibly three places that have live music. Back in the 90’s there was a good few more, but that’s another story. 

Thing is, it’s not that big a town centre, so it’s mostly going to be the same people going into these pubs. We don’t have rock bars or jazz clubs. They either like you or they don’t. We had to evolve over the years and gradually learn what went down better. It’s a sad fact that most of the music I like doesn’t. If we wanted to play, we had to play songs we hated , but the people would dance and cheer. At the end of the evening, we would get paid and asked back. If we tried to squeeze in something a bit rockier, there would be silence. Right lads, we might have to drop that one! 

[ubit]

13 hours ago, Bluewine said:

Some of us don't have that option. If I played music I like I'd be broke and unable to pay my bills.

Blue

Exactly! Round here , there are possibly three places that have live music. Back in the 90’s there was a good few more, but that’s another story. 

Thing is, it’s not that big a town centre, so it’s mostly going to be the same people going into these pubs. We don’t have rock bars or jazz clubs. They either like you or they don’t. We had to evolve over the years and gradually learn what went down better. It’s a sad fact that most of the music I like doesn’t. If we wanted to play, we had to play songs we hated , but the people would dance and cheer. At the end of the evening, we would get paid and asked back. If we tried to squeeze in something a bit rockier, there would be silence. Right lads, we might have to drop that one! 

[ubit]

The thing is, as I said before, as long as a band is tight and has a good sound, the semantics of whether you are playing a song note for note, are unimportant. If the gist of the song is captured. I. E. The melody that’s recognisable and the audience are enjoying it, then job done! You are successfully doing what the venue has asked you to do. Provide entertainment!