Old Fenders - Why the $$$?

[Quilly]

Hi Everyone, I see a lot of old fender basses on this site for sale for lots and lots of money. Why are they commanding such high prices? are they THAT much better than their modern counterparts?  

Edited February 6, 2019 by Quilly

[itu]

Probably not, but they have become rare and old enough to represent them as the holy Grail of basses, be it true or not. As my experience with Fenders is somewhat dull (the specifications I am after are not represented by any Fender), I have done some research of my own and found other brands and instruments, newer or older, that serve me far better. This is just my very own opinion and personal choice. Someone might say: No problem, please move forward.

[Lozz196]

I’ve played some older Fenders, some have been great, some haven’t. I doubt I’d buy one just for how old it was.

[Cuzzie]

Key question though, is why are some of the new ones so much, for a mass produced instrument with at times variable QC

Edited February 6, 2019 by Cuzzie

[gary mac]

Play a pre CBS P or J bass and you will understand

[chris_b]

Anything old moves into the "antique" and rare collectable world and the prices rise because demand is greater than supply.

Fender in pre-CBS days also had variable QC, but the good ones were so good that no one remembers the dogs. In the CBS days Fender were primarily about making money so many of the changes were not good for quality. A lot of the good pre-CBS instruments have been snapped up over the years by a generation of studio players.

But. . . . electric basses are very cheap, even the expensive ones, when you compare them to the prices of other instruments. Collectable electric guitars can range into the hundreds of thousands of pounds, and most concert grade classical instruments will start at house mortgage levels.

[Chiliwailer]

Not at all to disagree with Chris above as I get what he means, but I can certainly remember playing a fair few Pre CBS dogs. Though in general I’m a vintage Fender fan and have owned my fair share in the past. I don’t think they are better, just different. But the prices? Oh jeez, where to start making sense of that one... lots of arguments for and lots for against. 

[Kwerkykat]

I know not a thing except I live in the northern wilds of Canada and bought my first Fender 15 years ago just to keep me entertained thru the cold winter months ( it's -27 here right now )  - since then I've gotten others but there's nothing like the sound of a Fender once you've learned on it 😊. Js.. 

[Geek99]

Are antique dining tables necessarily different or objectively better than modern ones? I doubt it but they are an awful lot rarer 

[lemmywinks]

Novice musicians place a disproportionate amount of value in the instruments their heroes used, ignoring the fact that it was pretty much all that was available at the time. Also completely disregarding the fact that their heroes wouldn't touch that wonky necked 70s Jazz bass they just paid £2k if their life depended on it.

 

I recall an interview with either Jack Bruce or Eric Clapton regarding rehearsals for the Cream reunion - they got all of their vintage gear out from back in the day, realised their modern equipment was a lot better and binned off all the old stuff. There is nothing special about 40+ year old electric instruments, especially crude bolt on planks like Fenders.

[wateroftyne]

I don't think anyone buys a vintage Fender in the hope that it will be £x000 better than a £500 bass. If they do, they're misguided.

It's about collect-ability, romance, and (possibly) investment.

[fleabag]

The fever around 60's and 70's JB 's  is exactly that. Fever.  Once a fever is kicked off,  some people get caught up in it.  Now that it's real, in the sense that you can buy to invest, it's probably worth it, but paying that to just play is bordering on fever madness.  Old Fenders were nothing special. As said, there wasn't much competition at the time.  As always, YMMV

 

[thodrik]

I own an S9 series Precision (so could have been made any time from 1978-80). 

Got it for under £400 in 1999 (I was 13 and it seemed like a good deal compared to a new US Standard that would have been £700 or so). Now, basses from that era are going for £1300-£1500. If I had bought a US Standard when I was 14 it would probably only be worth £600 or so now. The reality though is that either instrument would still be a passive Fender that I have been using for a period of 20 years. After using the bass for twenty years, I have probably ruined my bass as a potential 'investment' purchase for someone else. What a bloody shame. 

I have always wanted to buy a seventies Jazz to match the Precision I have. When I was last properly looking for a four string Jazz in 2009, I played a few 60s Jazzes, along with a Sandberg and Sadowsky Metro. Mojo aside, the 60s Jazzes were nowhere near the Sandberg or the Sadowsky Metro in terms of fit, finish or sound. 

I love old basses, but if/when I have thousands to spend on a Fender Jazz-style bass I am much more likely to consider a Sadowsky, Mike Lull or even a new Fender Custom shop, where there less fear of 'will I get a good one?'

[spongebob]

I've played new and old gear.

Conclusion? New for me every time. Modern US Fenders get the hi-mass bridge, graphite rods....I'd plump for that, personally. Everyday reliability and easy to tweak at home or at gigs.

Both of the vintage basses I owned needed work (not Fenders BTW) - at least with new, you can make your own dents and dings, and the hardware and electrics are new and (hopefully) reliable!

I had a chat with Mark at Bass Direct a few years back about this very subject. He said 'well, you don't drive a 50 year old car, do you?'. I agreed! 😃

[wateroftyne]

 

1 minute ago, spongebob said:

I've played new and old gear.

Conclusion? New for me every time. Modern US Fenders get the hi-mass bridge, graphite rods....I'd plump for that, personally. Everyday reliability and easy to tweak at home or at gigs.

Both of the vintage basses I owned needed work (not Fenders BTW) - at least with new, you can make your own dents and dings, and the hardware and electrics are new and (hopefully) reliable!

I had a chat with Mark at Bass Direct a few years back about this very subject. He said 'well, you don't drive a 50 year old car, do you?'. I agreed! 😃

In 35 years of gigging, I've had three basses fail on me during a gig. One was a '71, the other two were less than a year old at the time.

[Machines]

Just now, spongebob said:

 

I had a chat with Mark at Bass Direct a few years back about this very subject. He said 'well, you don't drive a 50 year old car, do you?'. I agreed! 😃

A flawed argument. Vintage cars can sell for far higher values than their modern counterparts, but are lesser quality products. 

[bassbiscuits]

There's a couple of things here:

1) Are old Fenders good? Certainly yes some old Fenders (and any make old enough to be vintage) are very good, and if that's the sort of spec/vibe/look/sound you are after (for the record, I am...) then you could certainly fall for a cool old vintage bass. I've lots of modern Fenders, and still own an old Fender, and there's no better/worse comparison - but I'd say a modern USA Standard (or current equivalent) is a different bass to a 60s/70s original. Either might be your dream bass.

2) Are vintage guitars worth mega bucks? That's down to the individual. They are comparatively rare, so can command high prices driven by the demand for them. Personally, i can't afford to spent £2k-£3k on a vintage Fender - the one i own was bought 25 years ago for a fraction of that price. It covers a lot about what I want from a bass, but if i didn't own it, would i spent £3k on buying it now? Probably not.

3) Are modern, high-end basses naturally better than these artificially high-priced oldies? Not necessarily. A couple of years ago I dabbled with buying a Sadowsky Metro, a recent Fender Custom Shop 1955 P bass, and a Mike Lull PJ4 (which i did buy in the end). All three were very very average (tho it took me to gig the Lull a few times before i ran out of patience with it's sterile dull tone). But then i also own a cheap nondescript Yamaha which sounds good, despite having no pedigree whatsoever.

So 'are vintage Fenders any good?' is a very subjective question. They vary hugely like any other instrument. if you find one that you love, and can afford, then it's up to you if you think it's worth the money. For many people, the answer is yes.

[bumnote]

I have a 64 precision that I have had since 69. I wouldnt part with it because its been with me so long, its like part of the family and its like putting on an old comfortable pair of shoes. I have a 64 reissue CIJ that Im not sure I could tell apart blindfolded.

If I lost it and wanted a replacement I would either plump for a USA lakland or if I could get one with the right neck profile a G&L SB1 or SB2

[chris_b]

59 minutes ago, fleabag said:

Old Fenders were nothing special.

But some old Fenders were special, which is why the reputation exists. 

Over time many of the best old Fender basses gravitated to the studios. It's an environment where an extra, however subtle, level of quality in the tone will be noticed and appreciated.

Then again. . . most of the first call session players, the ones with their 59 P basses at the studio, will use modern instruments when they are gigging.

[fleabag]

Yes, i guess some old Fenders were special, but i think that's mainly down to the fact they made some rubbish, and the good ones were simply assembled properly. I still believe a lot of prices on old Fenders is based on the fever spreading, to the point were some people are buying old Fenders because they're old.  Bit of herd mentality going on somewhere

[chris_b]

Just now, fleabag said:

I still believe a lot of prices on old Fenders is based on the fever spreading, to the point were some people are buying old Fenders because they're old.  Bit of herd mentality going on somewhere

Agreed. There are many myths about early Fenders.

Most of us should just find the best sounding bass we can afford and get lessons with any cash left over.

[fleabag]

Good speech.  Some of those old F's will be investments for sure, but they really need checking out.  Though 99% sure if i had that kind of money to spend, i would rather throw it at ACG, or Andy JR or The Gut  on here, and i get a bass that's been built with love and passion, rather than what can only be considered a plank

[4000]

2 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Novice musicians place a disproportionate amount of value in the instruments their heroes used, ignoring the fact that it was pretty much all that was available at the time. Also completely disregarding the fact that their heroes wouldn't touch that wonky necked 70s Jazz bass they just paid £2k if their life depended on it.

 

I recall an interview with either Jack Bruce or Eric Clapton regarding rehearsals for the Cream reunion - they got all of their vintage gear out from back in the day, realised their modern equipment was a lot better and binned off all the old stuff. There is nothing special about 40+ year old electric instruments, especially crude bolt on planks like Fenders.

The part of this that amuses me is that to my ears their reunion concert sounded terrible, weedy and lacking in balls, compared to old footage.

[4000]

1 hour ago, spongebob said:

I've played new and old gear.

Conclusion? New for me every time. Modern US Fenders get the hi-mass bridge, graphite rods....I'd plump for that, personally. Everyday reliability and easy to tweak at home or at gigs.

Both of the vintage basses I owned needed work (not Fenders BTW) - at least with new, you can make your own dents and dings, and the hardware and electrics are new and (hopefully) reliable!

I had a chat with Mark at Bass Direct a few years back about this very subject. He said 'well, you don't drive a 50 year old car, do you?'. I agreed! 😃

I've had more issues with necks on new/recent basses than many of my older ones.

[crunchman]

I don't have a lot of experience of old Fender basses - I'm primarily a guitarist.  Old Fender guitars of the 6 string variety tend to be a lot more expensive than the basses.  I wouldn't personally spend that much, but I do have to say that a 50's Tele I once tried was probably the best sounding electric guitar I've played.  There does seem to be something special about the best of the old ones.

The whole topic of old wood is discussed to death on guitar forums.  There are those who say that the wood is better.  Whether that is because of quality in the first place, and all the good stuff has now been chopped down, or whether it is down to the way it ages is another matter for debate.  Whatever the reason, in the 6 string guitar market, those old ones fetch a fortune - but a lot of that is because they have now become collectable.  That seems to be feeding over into the bass market as well.  There is an element of "what the heroes played" in it as well.  Some guitarists want 58-60 sunburst Les Pauls because that is what Clapton played on the Beano album.  Some bassists want vintage P basses because that is what Jamerson played.

I can only ever recall having a go on one pre-CBS Fender bass.  What did stand out was how light it was.  It really was a featherweight.  I don't know whether that was how it had always been, or whether it had lost moisture content over the years.  Lighter weight instruments like that might well have a different tone.  Is it better?  That's probably subjective.