How to play my bands songs better?

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

It has, although it was seen as limiting and dropped in favour of notation about 1000 years ago.

It has never been superseded for the lute, it carries right through from renaissance era to modern guitar.

[paul_c2]

3 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It has never been superseded for the lute, it carries right through from renaissance era to modern guitar.

If you want to use tab, use tab. If you want to learn/use (conventional) music notation, then that's your option too.

The point I was making originally, is that (conventional) music notation allows musicians to effectively communicate their ideas, rather than relying on unclear wordy descriptions or "I'll show you....hang on....can I just borrow your bass and play through it a bit and you watch my fingers....." etc. 

In theory, tab could do it too; in practice there are a lot of variations of what information tab actually contains, and unfortunately the common denominator in music available in tab means it doesn't quite achieve the "effective communication" as above.

If your band wants to adopt one of the better variations in tabs, or finds some other way of effectively communicating music(al ideas), then that's great.

[Stub Mandrel]

Cross purposes here, perhaps.

I have no issue that standard notation can express more information, more succinctly, than tab.

But tab is accessible for beginners as it needs no knowledge of musical theory.

The point about it being dropped 1000 years ago is wholly incorrect; it was still preferred for the lute alongside classical notation well into the modern period as the fingerings used were seen to be important. This is still true for guitar for example where some parts can be effectively impossible to play correctly and easily without seeing the voicing in tab (the intro to Stairway to Heaven being an obvious example).

[paul_c2]

11 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

But tab is accessible for beginners as it needs no knowledge of musical theory.

Normal music notation is accessible for beginners too. What aspects of musical theory do you need to use it, which you can ignore if using tab?

11 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

some parts can be effectively impossible to play correctly and easily without seeing the voicing in tab (the intro to Stairway to Heaven being an obvious example).

Doesn't seem right, can you explain further? Tab gives the notes played and the strings they're played on. Notation gives the notes played and optional elements (such as a text note saying which string to play a particular note on, or which position to be in) can explain which string to play it on. Even if these optional elements are not there, it is still entirely possible to deduce which string to play each note on. Or in fact, the player has the option to choose, if there is >1 option. But there would be at least 1 option. If it were truly impossible, then tab would not be able to notate it either.

[Stub Mandrel]

10 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Normal music notation is accessible for beginners too. What aspects of musical theory do you need to use it, which you can ignore if using tab?

For a start, you need to understand keys and scales to understand notation. It surprising how many people start guitar without having a clue about either.

11 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Doesn't seem right, can you explain further? Tab gives the notes played and the strings they're played on. Notation gives the notes played and optional elements (such as a text note saying which string to play a particular note on, or which position to be in) can explain which string to play it on. Even if these optional elements are not there, it is still entirely possible to deduce which string to play each note on. Or in fact, the player has the option to choose, if there is >1 option. But there would be at least 1 option. If it were truly impossible, then tab would not be able to notate it either.

I have Led Zeppelin Complete. Believe me, it isn't easy, even if its possible. Once you have added text notes then any advantage of using classical notation is lost.

For a keyboard player, most chord voicings are obvious and easily recognised, but guitar chord voicings often cover well over an octave and may include open strings and strings well up the neck that even an experienced reader will have to put in effort to 'work out'. Many apparently 'intricate' or 'obscure' chord sequences are actually chosen to make use of easy fingerings and open notes on a guitar; that might not be obvious from notation - take Fotheringay or even Wurm as examples.

 

[paul_c2]

9 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Believe me, it isn't easy, even if its possible.

I'm trying to believe you but you're not really giving much concrete information on what makes describing a piece of music impossible by one form of notation, but possible by another. Or to put it another way, musical notation can do everything tab can do and more. They are simply different syntaxes of the same thing. 

An analogy might be that I can take a photo using a Nikon camera, and display it on a Samsung monitor. There's loads of different pictures possible, but all pictures which the Nikon can take, can be shown on the Samsung.

Its coming across that you're obviously not experienced, and don't fully understand, musical notation and all its variation or subtleties. I suspect this is the reason that you favour tab.

Which....(I've said it before)....is fair enough. I'm not forcing standard notation on anyone. I fully understand that in your situation, tab is going the job okay. In my situation, I use standard notation. I've also used tab in the past, quite extensively, so I know about it. 

[paul_c2]

16 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

For a start, you need to understand keys and scales to understand notation. It surprising how many people start guitar without having a clue about either.

Well......yes and no. You need to understand what a key signature is, but you don't NEED to fully understand keys and scales, you could simply "play as written" ie if the key signature has F# in it, you play F# when you see the note on the 4th line and not F natural, etc etc. This isn't too complicated (with a few sharps/flats, at least).

And I'd suggest that someone who doesn't have a clue about keys and scales will be limited in their musicality irrespective of whether they actually read normal notation or tab, or not at all.

AND even then.....a guitar or bass has an advantage with playing in different keys and scales that the fingering is no better or worse, except the availability of open strings, in any key. Unlike, say, a clarinet player who would need to use awkward fingerings in distant keys, and when the keys are closer it becomes more manageable.

16 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Once you have added text notes then any advantage of using classical notation is lost.

Well......yes and no. It would still have advantages.......it would just be one additional thing to look at while reading it, and could even be ignored (a trombone player, for example, would simply ignore it).

16 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

For a keyboard player, most chord voicings are obvious and easily recognised

There is no reason why chord voicings aren't just as obvious to a guitarist reading music, as a pianist reading music.

 

16 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

, but guitar chord voicings often cover well over an octave and may include open strings and strings well up the neck that even an experienced reader will have to put in effort to 'work out'.

An experienced reader will have no troubles things covering more than an octave, with open strings and "strings well up the neck"! Of course effort is required but its learnable just like everything else is learnable. It really isn't a barrier.

 

16 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Many apparently 'intricate' or 'obscure' chord sequences are actually chosen to make use of easy fingerings and open notes on a guitar; that might not be obvious from notation

Its just as obvious because its written down in the notation....an analogy might be that tab is painting by numbers, but even if the numbers were missing, a painter would know that grass is green and the sky is blue etc etc

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

Well my view is coloured by my complete inability to grasp notation. I don't deny its superiority at all.

I just can't do it and no amount of telling me I can will change that.

There are plenty of things I never thought I could do, that I persevered with and got the hang of. Then there are a few things I have tried really hard at and failed completely, like reading notation and ice skating.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, paul_c2 said:

There is no reason why chord voicings aren't just as obvious to a guitarist reading music, as a pianist reading music.

Whilst not really wanting to get into the argument either way, as I can read both, there is a clear difference here in that there is only one key for any note on a piano, whereas there are only a few notes (the lowest / highest 4) on a guitar / bass where that is the case.

[paul_c2]

24 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Whilst not really wanting to get into the argument either way, as I can read both, there is a clear difference here in that there is only one key for any note on a piano, whereas there are only a few notes (the lowest / highest 4) on a guitar / bass where that is the case.

Yes that's appreciated. Its true for all notes (well....except the lowest ones obviously) of a guitar, not just in chord voicings.

But its also true for many other instruments. For example, on a French Horn there's alternate fingerings for pretty muh every note, and 2 'sides' of the horn too (Bb and F). Some notes have 8 fingerings. And on other brass instruments (including trombone) there's alternate fingerings - these days, most trombone players use one with a valve or two as well as the slide. Woodwind instruments have loads of alternate fingerings too, and a particular one can make what was very difficult, slow, or out-of-tune into something much easier. 

Piano and other keyboard instruments have an advantage here but its just a factor of playing other non-keyboard instruments that the player takes into consideration. Better players will be able to identify the appropriate fingerings for a situation much quicker than a beginner.

[bazzbass]

I'm amazed no one has asked what the guitarist is playing while the bass is playing R 3 4 5 in A?

If he's just playing an A chord, there is not much more to say.

Ask him what chords he is playing and play the chord tones for each chord

R 3 5 8 kinda thing if Major chords etc

[T-Bay]

I was taught standard notation at school, if I am honest it bore no relation to music to me beyond plonking on a glockenspiel making a scale. I understand how it works and can translate from it but I certainly couldn’t play from the dots as I convert them to finger positions. I see tab as the middle ground - it’s what I do to notation to make it instantly playable. Maybe it’s just how my brain works.