Sub woofers - sublime or ridiculous?

[Daz39]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Consensus seems to be that:

1) a sub woofer could work with a band PA, and a few folk manage to use it well in that context; 

2) you almost certainly wouldn't use it as part of bass backline as an adjunct to your amp and cab;

3) fact is most professional PAs will have sub woofers delivering the low end for bass and kick drum;

4) 10" and 12" cabs are the most popular size and folk who argue that 5" cabs can still do the business just as well, somehow all have 10" or 12" speakers themselves. This is purely down to economics;

5) bumble bees shouldn't fly and Usain Bolt shouldn't be fast. But he is. Although he's not apparently going to be a great footballer, where his height would have been an a distinct advantage in the 6 yard box; 

6) I have no idea where the dog stuff is going... 

Hah - for Point 5 I submit Andy Carroll as evidence against.

 

[Cuzzie]

And that Peter crouch is not great in the air at all.

Point 4 as Bill points out is a loaded dice - if the vast majority of manufacturers use that template, then that’s what you have to choose from, so that can be scrapped.

And don’t get bogged down in Binary thoughts and paper spec sheets.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

5) bumble bees shouldn't fly

Myth. Back in the 1930s an aeronautical engineer made that pronouncement. It would have been correct if bees fly in the same fashion that aircraft and birds do, but they don't, nor do most insects. Said engineer was a Frenchman, so his confusion was understandable. 😋

His theory never should have been published, but it was, and nearly a century later the myth persists. Bass gear myths are just as unfounded and just as pervasive.

[Al Krow]

Bill that's brilliant! Cheers! 😎 

[Al Krow]

27 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

And that Peter crouch is not great at all.

Fixed. 

[fleabag]

58 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Myth.

😋

 

And Moth 

 

[Cuzzie]

@ped

 

Mods - can we please have a face palm or dad joke emoji added - it would be the most used one

[ped]

🤦‍♂️

[Cuzzie]

🤦🏾‍♂️ to myself......I meant to say in the like/haha button area, butbthats just me being lazy

 

i’ll Get my coat......

[ped]

I see, well I'll make a note of it - there are a few we'd like to add!

[Al Krow]

Anyone tempted by / got this? 

Feel like we could do a lot of damage to a dance floor with this £900 mini monster! But not really found any good demos on this yet.

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

With a 38Hz -10dB point it's nothing special as far as subs go. Not all bass cabs go that low by any means, but many do.

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

With a 38Hz -10dB point it's nothing special as far as subs go. Not all bass cabs go that low by any means, but many do.

What would you recommend sub wise, if one was to be foolish enough to head down that particular rabbit hole? 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I assume you mean for PA, and the answer is the largest one you can afford and haul. Actually, the largest two. One mistake I see a lot is people trying to use subs with less capability than their mains. As I already stated the cab size and power ratio of subs should be about 4:1 compared to the mains. That makes 'ultra compact sub' an oxymoron. 

[Al Krow]

48 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I assume you mean for PA, and the answer is the largest one you can afford and haul. Actually, the largest two. One mistake I see a lot is people trying to use subs with less capability than their mains. As I already stated the cab size and power ratio of subs should be about 4:1 compared to the mains. That makes 'ultra compact sub' an oxymoron. 

On this particular subject I don't have a problem being regarded as being a bit of a moron. Oxy or otherwise.

[jazzyvee]

On ‎11‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 19:01, Al Krow said:

What would you recommend sub wise, if one was to be foolish enough to head down that particular rabbit hole? 

I picked up a dubster 2 last year to add to my rig and used it a few times. I think it's more of a hybrid sub/stand alone bass cab.  I've only used it on reggae gigs so far and the first time I used it was with a big Baby II in bridge mode. The gig had only a vocal PA so it certainly delivered a great thick sound. I also used the Dubster on it's own at a large gig with PA support and that gave us a good depth to the bass on stage as the monitors don't really deliver any decent bottom end for a reggae band. 

The last time I used it was again in with the BB2 but on a separate channel on my power amp and I had it's volume set so I could just begin to feel the weight of bass supporting the BB2 but without it being loud.

For most of my use I expect it will be in this mode rather than a weapon to blast the bass.

[Al Krow]

Not a sub woofer, but this former 128 lb monster could produce 33Hz at - 3dB. Impressive, right?

LF Drivers: 4 x 10” Cast Speakers
Voice Coil: 2.5”
Magnet Weight: 56 oz 
HF Driver: Horn/Driver
Voice Coil: 1”
Magnet Weight: 8 oz 
RMS Power Handling: 600-Watts 
Frequency Response (-3dB): 33Hz - 18kHz
Usable Low Frequency (-10dB): 29Hz
Crossover Frequency: 4kHz
Nominal Impedance: 4-Ohms 
Sensitivity: 96dB
Maximum SPL: 124dB
Dimensions (W x H x D inches): 26.25 x 30.75 x 18.75
Weight: 128 Pounds

https://ampeg.com/products/pro/pr410hlf/

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Impressive if true, but I doubt it. It would require driver specs that are unattainable. You can get -3dB at 33Hz with 96dB sensitivity, but not from a cabinet less than twice the size of the Ampeg. 

[chris_b]

42 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Not a sub woofer, but this former 128 lb monster could produce 33Hz at - 3dB. Impressive, right?

LF Drivers: 4 x 10” Cast Speakers
Voice Coil: 2.5”
Magnet Weight: 56 oz 
HF Driver: Horn/Driver
Voice Coil: 1”
Magnet Weight: 8 oz 
RMS Power Handling: 600-Watts 
Frequency Response (-3dB): 33Hz - 18kHz
Usable Low Frequency (-10dB): 29Hz
Crossover Frequency: 4kHz
Nominal Impedance: 4-Ohms 
Sensitivity: 96dB
Maximum SPL: 124dB
Dimensions (W x H x D inches): 26.25 x 30.75 x 18.75
Weight: 128 Pounds

https://ampeg.com/products/pro/pr410hlf/

I believe this cab had a reputation for being woolly and boomy (ref Talkbass)

[Al Krow]

12 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I believe this cab had a reputation for being woolly and boomy (ref Talkbass)

Ah good to know, Chris. Some dude has just posted on how amazing it is on the low fundamentals thread!

[itu]

Quite interesting, that the max SPL is only 124 dB and 121 dB @ 33 Hz. Not overly loud.

This relates to pretty low sensitivity and 600 W power handling capacity. To get something like 130 dB @ 33 Hz, the power handling should be close to 5 kW. The amp should be able to produce that power, too.

[paulmcnamara]

A case against Sub woofers

https://pitchfork.com/features/oped/9667-drop-the-bass-a-case-against-subwoofers/

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

And there's the reactionary flip side. Where subs are concerned the only time they're counter-productive, either in a club, a stadium, a car or a home, is when they're used to reproduce low frequency sounds that shouldn't be there. To say they shouldn't be used to reproduce what should be there is just as silly as the opposite view.

[paulbuzz]

3 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

And there's the reactionary flip side. Where subs are concerned the only time they're counter-productive, either in a club, a stadium, a car or a home, is when they're used to reproduce low frequency sounds that shouldn't be there. To say they shouldn't be used to reproduce what should be there is just as silly as the opposite view.

I took a different message from the article Bill, which I found interesting rather than reactionary. I felt that the author's main gripe was that following the widespread availability and installation of super-powerful subs in mainstream venues, the freshly-discovered option of creating very low frequencies at very high levels has encouraged sound-people to do just that, regardless of whether it's appropriate or not.

This applied strongly to the author's acoustic duo, but I would say that it is also very much in line with my experience of the sound at rock music shows over the last several years, a number of which have been ruined for me by massive sub-bass levels swamping the rest of the music.

This seems very annoying and completely unjustifiable to me, but I hope that I'm discerning rather than reactionary!  

[Chienmortbb]

On 28/02/2019 at 17:18, paulbuzz said:

Agree absolutely. Your anecdote about Greg Lake's bass sound is distressingly familiar.

I don't know what's wrong with the people responsible for these mixes. It's as if they've somehow become persuaded that the spectral balance of electronic dance music is appropriate for all other forms of music too.
Or is it just complying with what they think people expect from the sound at live gigs these days?

Either way, it seems to have become a very common aesthetic for live sound mixes, with hugely detrimental effects on the entire mix, and the bass guitar in particular.

Apologies to Al if I'm getting a bit off-topic here.

A bit late in here but I totally agree. Too many sound men will basically set up the Kick and then maybe the bass and worry about the rest of the mix if they can be arsed. I saw Glenn hugged at Southampton three years ago and every tie the kick was hit the rest of the band were inaudible.