At what point would you consider yourself a "musician"?

[Newfoundfreedom]

It always makes me cringe when someone calls me a musician. 

Not because it's a term I find insulting, but because it's a moniker I don't feel I deserve. I'm a bass player, no problem with that. I'm not a very good one admittedly, but I can hold a tune and get through a few songs relatively unscathed and with a reasonable sense of timing. But the songs I've learned, for the main part I've learned verbatim by copying the original. I've even written a few basic songs just by doing what sounds right to my ear, but I know very little of the theory behind music or how and why it works. To me that's the difference between a bass player and a musician. 

So I was just wondering what other people's definition of "musician" is. At what point do you consider you became / will become one, if at all?

Is it when you first pick up an instrument and master your first song? In which case was is musician when I played Little Donkey on recorder at 8 years old? I don't  really think so.

Is it when you earn money by playing music? I think there are probably many great musicians out there that never really make any money. 

Is it the point at which you are proficient enough to play along with other people? I guess I'm pretty much at that stage but still don't consider myself one. 

So what is it? What is that point at which a mere mortal becomes a "musician". 

 

 

[HengistPod]

Up to yourself, I reckon.

If you're capable of performing a set of actions with a thing that consequently produces some kind of noise, that counts as a "musician" in my book. The trick is in which descriptive adjective you choose to apply ... "professional", "amateur", "bedroom", "gigging", "rubbish", etc ...

Edited March 8, 2019 by HengistPod

[Lozz196]

Im not sure there is a cut-off point where we make the step from bassist to musician, to me a bassist is a musician as is a guitarist, drummer etc. Much like football, defender, midfielder, striker, they’re all footballers.

[Newfoundfreedom]

1 minute ago, Lozz196 said:

Im not sure there is a cut-off point where we make the step from bassist to musician, to me a bassist is a musician as is a guitarist, drummer etc. Much like football, defender, midfielder, striker, they’re all footballers.

Yeah I get what you're saying, but would that also apply if you only had a kick about with your mates at the weekend? Would you still describe yourself as a footballer? I suppose you could. In so much as you enjoy it and you play it, but it just somehow seems disingenuous to me. 

[keeponehandloose]

I think the name is something that should be given to an individual by others, not by ourselves. It can either be due to natural talent that earns respect or down to sheer graft that enables an individual to attain the required skills.

 

[chris_b]

I'm not sure at what point we qualify for the term musician. Maybe it's when we start to play with other players.

[Happy Jack]

24 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

Is it when you first pick up an instrument and master your first song? In which case was is musician when I played Little Donkey on recorder at 8 years old?

 

Yup, that works for me. In fact, you don't need to pick up an instrument. By the time I was 11 I was singing in three choirs and a choral society. I was a musician.

People tend to over-think this.

 

[Newfoundfreedom]

2 minutes ago, keeponehandloose said:

I think the name is something that should be given to an individual by others, not by ourselves. It can either be due to natural talent that earns respect or down to sheer graft that enables an individual to attain the required skills.

 

Yeah I would agree with that in the context you say. Maybe it's a term that's over used. For example my band get together socially every Monday night for a few beers and often chat about all things musical. Someone overhearing wound say something along the lines of "oh, you're all musicians". Well in that context they've never heard us play, so we certainly haven't earned the title. Yet it's not wrong. It just makes me feel a little awkward and fraudulent sometimes. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

4 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Yup, that works for me. In fact, you don't need to pick up an instrument. By the time I was 11 I was singing in three choirs and a choral society. I was a musician.

People tend to over-think this.

 

That's another very valid point. Singers of course are also musicians, as are composers and writers. Even some drummers hang around with musicians. 😂

[Deedee]

14 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Im not sure there is a cut-off point where we make the step from bassist to musician, to me a bassist is a musician as is a guitarist, drummer etc. Much like football, defender, midfielder, striker, they’re all footballers.

I think the football analogy is a good one by taking it one stage further in that we're all footballers (musos), but some of us are in the Sunday morning leagues and some are in the Champions League

[Newfoundfreedom]

10 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I'm not sure at what point we qualify for the term musician. Maybe it's when we start to play with other players.

Yes I think if I had to pick a definite line this would probably be it. But then you could argue that Ed Sheeran isn't a musician. (To be fair some would probably argue that anyway 😂)

[chris_b]

5 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

. . . . But then you could argue that Ed Sheeran isn't a musician. (To be fair some would probably argue that anyway 😂)

I think you're right. I've changed my mind. Making music qualifies someone to be described as a musician.

There are those like me, who make music, and those like Ed Sheeran, who I'd describe as "artists". They have a level of creativity that I can only dream of. IMO ES is a fine songwriter and performer.

[Happy Jack]

14 minutes ago, Deedee said:

I think the football analogy is a good one by taking it one stage further in that we're all footballers (musos), but some of us are in the Sunday morning leagues and some are in the Champions League

I used to play CM0102 ... does that count?

 

[leftybassman392]

I agree with Jack: people do overthink it. I guess part of the problem lies with the word we generally want to put in front of it. My musical activities were my primary - indeed only - source of income for nearly 15 years so I thought of myself as a professional musician, but really it's just an adjective. Anyone who plays any instrument at any level could justifiably call themselves a musician in my book.

I know people who are, frankly, a bit up themselves about this kind of thing and like to crow on about the years of study and the hours of practice, and about how anybody who hasn't done the same can't really be a 'proper' musician. It's a valid perspective I guess, but in truth you could say much the same about speaking a foreign language, working with wood, cooking or even driving.

Edited March 8, 2019 by leftybassman392

[bassace]

Surely it’s all down to your principal/sole source of income. I’ve been playing bass for 55 years and not once in that time have I called myself a musician - although I’ve done and still do a heap of gigs. I’ve called myself a civil engineer or a builder and now I say I’m retired. But never a musician. Conversely there are plenty around who probably don’t come up to a very high musical standard but because music is where they make their living can justifiably call themselves a musician.

[DaveFry]

Nowadays if you can drag and drop a sample onto a timeline and click the loop button you are a musician . A songwriter , however ,is someone who can set it to repeat the same intro three times with different sounds . Lyrics not needed , apparently it is a song .

[Newfoundfreedom]

6 minutes ago, bassace said:

Surely it’s all down to your principal/sole source of income. I’ve been playing bass for 55 years and not once in that time have I called myself a musician - although I’ve done and still do a heap of gigs. I’ve called myself a civil engineer or a builder and now I say I’m retired. But never a musician. Conversely there are plenty around who probably don’t come up to a very high musical standard but because music is where they make their living can justifiably call themselves a musician.

It's a fair point but again I don't entirely agree. There are loads of people out there that would primarily consider themselves musicians, but still have to do a day job to pay the bills. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

4 minutes ago, DaveFry said:

Nowadays if you can drag and drop a sample onto a timeline and click the loop button you are a musician . A songwriter , however ,is someone who can set it to repeat the same intro three times with different sounds . Lyrics not needed , apparently it is a song .

I would put DJ's in that category too. To me they're not musicians but others may disagree. 

[lowdown]

1 hour ago, keeponehandloose said:

I think the name is something that should be given to an individual by others, not by ourselves. It can either be due to natural talent that earns respect or down to sheer graft that enables an individual to attain the required skills.

 

If you earn your living through music and fill out a tax return, you need to be brave enough to write down 'Musician', under occupation (unless your accountant files on your behalf)

If you hang around waiting for 'others' to call you musician, I hope they call you musician before January 31st, otherwise there is a £100 coming your way.

 

[Newfoundfreedom]

2 minutes ago, lowdown said:

If you earn your living through music and fill out a tax return, you need to be brave enough to write down 'Musician', under occupation (unless your accountant files on your behalf)

If you hang around waiting for 'others' to call you musician, I hope they call you musician before January 31st, otherwise there is a £100 coming your way.

 

So by that logic then anyone who doesn't make a taxable income through making music isn't a musician? 

[Barking Spiders]

I'd no more call my myself a musician cos I noodle about on instruments than I'd call myself a chef cos I can turn out a decent moussaka for the family dinner.  It would denigrate the term for those highly schooled players with advanced  technical skills and theory who make their living from it.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Barking Spiders

[Newfoundfreedom]

1 minute ago, Barking Spiders said:

I'd no more call my myself a musician cos I noodle about on instruments than I'd call myself a chef cos I can turn out a decent moussaka for the family dinner.  If it would denigrate the term for those highly schooled players with advanced  technical skills and theory who make their living from it.

Thanks. That's my point exactly. I certainly don't feel that I deserve the title either. 

[Ricky 4000]

If you put it down as your occupation on a car insurance policy, you'll see what it costs to be a musician. 😬

[Newfoundfreedom]

1 minute ago, Ricky 4000 said:

If you put it down as your occupation on a car insurance policy, you'll see what it costs to be a musician. 😬

Yeah tell me about it. I used to be a nightclub doorman (bouncer). Try that one on your can insurance renewal. 

[leftybassman392]

1 minute ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

 I certainly don't feel that I deserve the title either. 

I think you may be doing yourself a disservice. As I said earlier, it’s all a question of choosing the right adjective. The way you’re saying it kind of suggests that ‘professional’ is an unspoken-but-assumed part of the description.

Not so. What’s wrong with using ‘amateur’, ‘hobby’, ‘part-time’, ‘budding’ or any of half a dozen other words? Seriously, people sometimes get properly exercised over this business, and I really don’t think that’s the right way to see it.