A London Quandary...

[timloudon]

This is a particularly difficult one for me to resolve on my own, and I thought asking the bass community for there advice and words of wisdom would be the best idea.

I'm currently up in sunny Leeds, studying at the Leeds College of Music. I'm now in my third year, and graduation looms (although not after a stint of hard work).

I'm undecided about whether to stay in Leeds, or move down to London.

I'd be developing a bass playing career in either place, having already developed some good skills though the years, and made a good deal of friends who are doing similar things.

The real question is, do I need to move to London to put myself in a place of opportunity (as well as tough competition)?

Advice would be gratefully received...

[jakenewmanbass]

London, no doubt. Only real professional music community in the UK, you can make a living elsewhere (and I have in the north west) but there is a ceiling.

[leschirons]

Agree with Jakesbass 100% Whilst it's all changed in the UK in recent years with respect to where good stuff comes from ( you can list top recording and live bands from all over these days, Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, and I believe Muse are Torbay in Devon based) the thing is, you need to get your face in the opportunity frame and I think London is the place to do that. Yes there's competition but it's where you'll make contacts in my opinion.

Best of luck with whatever you decide. Nice to come across someone who's planning to make a career in bassplaying. Think most people just drift into it by default. It must mean you're focussed.

[Russ]

I guess it depends on which direction you want to go in.

Undoubtedly, London is the place to be if you want studio/session work or profitable function band gigs. If you're looking for success in a band environment though, the UK has different hotspots where labels go to seek out talent - ie, Manchester still has a huge indie scene, Yorkshire is a hotspot for rock music, Cardiff/South Wales seems to be an up-and-coming area for many different genres, and Scotland (esp. Edinburgh) is well known for having a good range of singer/songwriter gigs.

Although, to be honest, London has all these too. You'll have the widest range of opportunities there, although it's not necessarily the be-all and end-all.

[Kiwi]

I'm sure others are better qualified to comment than I, but even in London you'll need to be 110% dedicated to this career choice.

You'll also have to be versatile and find whatever ways to make it pay when the performance work isn't coming in. Its VERY competitive out here with so many grads coming out of the contemporary music schools. Many of the musicians I've met have very supportive partners who provide a reliable income to support them both during dry spells. It's about who you know not what you know, as well. So it pays to get out there and meet other musicians who can slip you depping gigs. After a while you'll have done so many depping gigs and met so many musicians (and possibly other industry bods) that you'll have established a network of professional contacts. As a career choice it can be extremely mercenary and even well established musicians don't have a regular income (unless you're someone who has a regular high profile gig like Dave Swift). So a thick skin is an asset.

There have been a number of creative pursuits I could have turned into a career (illustration/sculpture/music) but I didn't want the insecurity, couldn't handle the rejection that I'd have to go through before I got established, and to be honest I wouldn't have gotten as much satisfaction if I was dependent on them for an income.

[timloudon]

Cheers for the advice guys. I knew you'd help!

It's an interesting one. I just feel that I'll be holding off something I want to do staying in Leeds- yes, it has a good music scene and plenty of musicians (very good ones too), but I think I'll just get stuck.

It will be expensive and difficult, especially since we're in some kind of economic crisis (although when there's a recession, there's then a boom, hopefuly), but I feel I can make it work. It'll just be Kiwi's 110% work and commitment.

Is there anyone here who has had this experience- moving to london and slowly working towards a career?

But also, I'm not so naive as to think that there are [b]only[/b] opportunities in London.

Also, any ideas as to where to move? I've done no research into this aspect, as I've only really started thinking about it recently.

[skankdelvar]

London's not necessarily better - but there's just [i]more[/i] of everything - people, venues, bands, studios. So the community is bigger. Thus more opportunities.

As regards where to live - everywhere's expensive, but for your purposes I'd stay North of the river (better public transport into Central London and less of a schlep if you want to get a train to Leeds) and find somewhere within walking distance of a tube station - fastest way to get around.

[YouMa]

I love london and lived in bexley for a bit what an adventure! You will enjoy it more if you have lots of money though.Although im from newcastle one of the grandad youma,s was a proper "the krays cut me" cockney w***er,and he was wicked.

Edited December 9, 2008 by YouMa

[Kiwi]

[quote name='timloudon' post='349225' date='Dec 8 2008, 11:53 PM']Is there anyone here who has had this experience- moving to london and slowly working towards a career?[/quote]
You can drop a line to Phil Mann, Mike Brooks, Phil Mulford, Lowdown (Gary) and Urb to start with as they are all full time pro's. Teaching or writing seems to be the regular gig when the live work isn't coming in. The other thing to consider is that even if you get tour work, the rate you typically get paid is not that much more than doing function band gigs, even for international acts like Kylie. However some of the more established artists like Rod Stewart, Elton John, Cliff Richard etc. are rumoured to pay very well indeed.

[coasterbass]

Yorkshire is nicer than London. If you can find work there then I'd stay.

[William James Easton]

Glad i live in yorkshire, love it. well sometimes.
However i had the chance to move away on many occasions. Turned each one down. As it was not to puruse a career as a solo/session/working bass player. but band related and i dont buy thayt stuff that bands have to move to london to 'make it'. that theroy has been dead for the past 20 years. Real talent gets found.

but if there is nothing holding you back then go.

[bigjohn]

London is great with money. sh*t without. Dick Whittington has a lot to answer for.

[Born 2B Mild]

Go to London. It's a no brainer. It's where there's enough going on for you to find something.

I realised that at the age of 25, living in Reading. I then spent seven years in central London building up my non-bass career, before escaping to Yorkshire. That formative, self-sacrificing period cannot be easily re-visited. So go starve for your art in town, but view it as a necessary move that doesn't have to be permanent if you don't want it to be.

[timloudon]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='349618' date='Dec 9 2008, 12:40 PM']London is great with money. sh*t without. Dick Whittington has a lot to answer for.[/quote]



I've been talking to loads of people about it, and it seems that it's an opportunity that'll be hard, but potentially worth it.

I do have an older brother who's living in Clapham and working as a web developer in a nice company, so I at least have a place to start living and someone who knows about the general costs etc... I've also got a very good friend who lives near Brick Lane who's doing the singing thing.

But I must mention that I'm not slagging off Yorkshire - it's a good place.

Cheers for the advice everyone, I'll let you know how it gets on!

[budget bassist]

Regarding the music industry, you can make it elsewhere, the guy that produced/engineered the last two arctic monkeys albums and the last kings of leon album managed to make a good name for himself without being in london. He has only just gone to london, and i think he said he managed to buy a flat there while keeping his old house too, so there's definitely opportunities to be had elsewhere, you'll have to work hard for it but it's doable.

As other people said though, the majority of the music industry is based down in london and it would probably make it much easier to break into the industry by moving there, though times may be hard for a bit if you don't have a secure income.
I want to get into the music industry too (as a bassist/guitarist or a sound engineer), and i plan on moving to london too, it's just something i want to do and that's probably the best place to do it.

Just my 0.02

[timloudon]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='349869' date='Dec 9 2008, 04:30 PM']Just my 0.02[/quote]

Your 0.02 is very much appreciated!

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='349869' date='Dec 9 2008, 04:30 PM']Regarding the music industry, you can make it elsewhere, the guy that produced/engineered the last two arctic monkeys albums and the last kings of leon album managed to make a good name for himself without being in london. He has only just gone to london, and i think he said he managed to buy a flat there while keeping his old house too, so there's definitely opportunities to be had elsewhere, you'll have to work hard for it but it's doable.

As other people said though, the majority of the music industry is based down in london and it would probably make it much easier to break into the industry by moving there, though times may be hard for a bit if you don't have a secure income.
I want to get into the music industry too (as a bassist/guitarist or a sound engineer), and i plan on moving to london too, it's just something i want to do and that's probably the best place to do it.

Just my 0.02[/quote]

I agree with thes in part, but have to raise the 'anecdote' flag. The whole "But [person who became successful] did it [in a non-reccommended way]" argument is based on some pretty flawed logic and can be used to advocate all sorts of unwise behaviour. You hear about the one success and not the hundreds who did the same [non-reccommended way] and found a ceiling. Some people would have made it wherever they were. Some people got lucky due to circumstance. Maybe if the man in question above had moved to London earlier he'd be King of the World by now.

As people are saying, getting contacts is vital unless you get extremely lucky. and youre more likely to get lucky where there is a higher population of musicians and/or people looking for musicians. Being in London can't hurt. Leeds will still be there in five years.

[budget bassist]

I wouldn't say he did it in a non-reccommended way at all! He made use of everything at his disposal, worked hard and took advantage of his free studio time at his college. Of course finding the right band is luck, be he still had to work hard to get where he is today and i know that i'll utilise all the studio time i can get my hands on once my college allows me to do so come easter.

[urb]

Hey Tim

Great advice from every one here, Kiwi particularly, and I'm sort of in the same boat as him as I do get to do some great pro gigs from time to time but I'm also a music journalist/website manager. But being in London really helps all three aspects of the work I do. I lived in Oxford for two years, then Brghton for 4 years before moving to London, yet I was up to London at least once a week for thos 6 years to either play gigs or write about them!

What I have found since I made the move is that just being able to network with some of the best people in the country (well a lot of them) has meant I've been able to establish myself in the different areas I work in. When I first moved though I was renting and I literally had ONE freelance job to keep me going and I went through some rough times with very little dosh. But I survived, worked some weird jobs and got through and now I've just had my best year yet... and I now own a flat and have become a dad!

My advice is do it but be prepared to tak temping work, function gigs, whatever you have to survive - there's no sense in turning work down right? Get out to jam sessions and open mic nights and meet other players, there are loads of these all over town, and if you play well and get along with some of them then they might remember you and that you can start to build your network of musos. If you can find some other job that isn't soul destroying then it'll take the pressure off solely earning money from music and that way you can try a few more 'creative' projects - but hey if you can find yourself a good 'commercial' gig with a pop/rock band then that's another option.

Lastly I hear Walthamstow is the now muso central - even though it's the last stop on the Victoria line... - it's a nice enough area that's still affordable and thanks to the Olympics is (as they say) 'on the up' - so you could look to rent there. I love the area I'm in - Brixton/Tulse Hill - if you can find somewhere with a park and a good 'village' atmosphere it makes life in the big city a lot more bearable.

If you have any specific questions about moving here then PM me.

Good luck

Mike

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='349121' date='Dec 8 2008, 09:49 PM']There have been a number of creative pursuits I could have turned into a career (illustration/sculpture/music)[/quote]


CK - that quote has made my day!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='350427' date='Dec 10 2008, 09:52 AM']CK - that quote has made my day![/quote]
Well, when you're young, stupid and at art school anything seems possible.

[timloudon]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='350444' date='Dec 10 2008, 10:09 AM']Well, when you're young, stupid and at art school anything seems possible.[/quote]



You are a man of great insight!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='349975' date='Dec 9 2008, 05:32 PM']I wouldn't say he did it in a non-reccommended way at all! He made use of everything at his disposal, worked hard and took advantage of his free studio time at his college. Of course finding the right band is luck, be he still had to work hard to get where he is today and i know that i'll utilise all the studio time i can get my hands on once my college allows me to do so come easter.[/quote]

I think you miss CDS' point. What he's saying is that trumpeting examples of people who are successful outside the conventional wisdom suggested path is not a particularly helpful observation to someone who is trying to make a decision in the way that Tim is, and in a sense is 'porage for one'. We all know of examples of people making it against the grain but the probable reality is that if we used those examples as templates for our actions there would be a huge amount more failure and disappointment. (usually with people throwing their hands in the air and saying "I don't know what happened")

This is not an argument for not finding one's own path btw, it's more semantics, but nevertheless important IMO to the OP

Edited December 10, 2008 by jakesbass

[The Funk]

I was born and raised in London, and I've played around a bit. There are probably not more than 50 good bass players here.

Do you want to join/form an originals band or do you want to get some good session work?

If it's session work you're after, it's not about how good you are. It's about who you've already worked with. Get that first profile gig and the rest will fall into place. I'm sure there will be people you know in Leeds who know people in London to help you get in there.

If you want to do the originals thing, you could start that anywhere. In some ways it would be easier to build up a large following outside of London.

Edited December 10, 2008 by The Funk

[timloudon]

[quote name='The Funk' post='350666' date='Dec 10 2008, 01:32 PM']I was born and raised in London, and I've played around a bit. There are probably not more than 50 good bass players here.

Do you want to join/form an originals band or do you want to get some good session work?

If it's session work you're after, it's not about how good you are. It's about who you've already worked with. Get that first profile gig and the rest will fall into place. I'm sure there will be people you know in Leeds who know people in London to help you get in there.

If you want to do the originals thing, you could start that anywhere. In some ways it would be easier to build up a large following outside of London.[/quote]

Cheers for the post.

It's more session work I'm after. And I do have a very good friend down there who's got a good many contacts - she's very business savvy. I'm also going to take whatever comes, so if it's originals work, then it may work out.

I'm also looking forward to being closer to the bass gallery.