Am I too opinionated to be in a band?

[mikel]

51 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Same kind of things i would mention when first playing with a band whether that be audition or 1st rehearsal. I simply won't play in a band that is far too loud at rehearsals or on stage. There's no need for it. Get a balance between quiet enough to talk over and just loud enough to let yourself get drawn into the groove or feel of the songs but it doesn't have to be deafening. 

If a song is too fast or faster than it should be its the first thing i'd say when finished the song. Depends how you say it though.

I generally make a joke about it being a punk version or a casual comment like "wee bit fast but otherwise sounded ok"

Is that not what all bands should be aiming for........an open and upfront approach to improving the band and the songs.

Dave

Well quite, but if you are simply trying out with an existing band they are not concerned with opinions. They only want to find out if you can cut it and if you fit as a personality. If you like them and the music then wait till you are a real band member and then suggest things.

[Paul S]

The tempo thing is quite a sensitive topic for many of the drummers I've played with as they sometimes feel it is a personal criticism.  A click track via IEMs or strobe on a mobile phone seems to be a reasonable solution, once the correct speed has been agreed by the band.  Getting to that agreement can be a bit tricky sometimes, though!

[Happy Jack]

Ultimately I reckon it all comes down to what you want as a musician. If you want to play to full venues full of happy, dancing people (a bit like me, really) then two ways to completely wreck that are (i) play too loud, and (ii) play too fast.

If the band's volume pins the audience to the back wall of the venue, then pretty soon you'll be playing to an empty room, and then you won't be playing anywhere.

If the band's speed means that the audience stand around looking bored and disgusted, then pretty soon ... well, you get the picture.

I can't see either of those issues as being negotiable, and if you're in the minority on these subjects then chances are that you're in the wrong band.

You haven't mentioned the third big issue that causes trouble - repertoire choices (no, that wasn't a failed Tarantino project).

[Happy Jack]

With a too-loud band, I usually stop playing (in a high-vis sort of way) halfway through a song, and very obviously change up my earplugs from ER15 to ER25. I then reply to everything said to me with, "You what? Sorry? What was that?".

With a too-fast band, I greet the ending of every song with, "I reckon we can play that faster, y'know." Not that funny the first time, bloody irritating the seventh time.

 

[Stylon Pilson]

10 minutes ago, mikel said:

Well quite, but if you are simply trying out with an existing band they are not concerned with opinions. They only want to find out if you can cut it and if you fit as a personality. If you like them and the music then wait till you are a real band member and then suggest things.

At an audition or try out, if they're too loud then I'd politely decline and go my way. No need to tell them why, just a "good luck and cheerio". Same if they're consistently too fast.

Occasional too-fastedness is something to then bring up delicately at the third rehearsal or thereabouts. Something like "I've noticed when we play MacArthur Park it's a bit quicker than the original. Can we try it again but a bit slower?" If this then turns into a blazing row then I clearly made a serious mistake somewhere and it would be best to cut ties sooner rather than later.

S.P.

[yorks5stringer]

4 minutes ago, Stylon Pilson said:

At an audition or try out, if they're too loud then I'd politely decline and go my way. No need to tell them why, just a "good luck and cheerio". Same if they're consistently too fast.

Occasional too-fastedness is something to then bring up delicately at the third rehearsal or thereabouts. Something like "I've noticed when we play MacArthur Park it's a bit quicker than the original. Can we try it again but a bit slower?" If this then turns into a blazing row then I clearly made a serious mistake somewhere and it would be best to cut ties sooner rather than later.

S.P.

MacArthur Park? I'd kill to play that in a band at any speed! But much more likely to be Brown Eyed Girl or Sex on Fire.

 

P.S. noticed you were being ironic.

Edited March 25, 2019 by yorks5stringer

[spongebob]

Totally reasonable IMHO - all perfectly justified.

I live by a rule given to me by a bass player some years back (I was drumming in the band). His rule? You're not auditioning me, I'm auditioning you! Even though not said, it's a good way to approach bands. If they're not up to standard, then let 'em go!

Had a similar experience myself recently. Left long-standing band, looking for something new. Ended up with a trio - fine - by at the first rehearsal, the singer/guitarist was beyond loud. He was shaking the building.....I raised my concerns, but it fell on (literally) deaf ears!

Project has since crumbled, anyway! Another Fleetwood Mac link to Mickey's original post - after the drummer quit (1 practice), main guy tells me he's got loads of contacts for replacements....then nothing. Next minute, he's wanting to dump all the homework done, and start a FM-type band!

Essentially, he's cancelled about 4 meetings, whilst maintaining all the 'loads of contacts, it's happening....' BS. At the weekend, after 3 months of this, I quit.

Upshot? Opinions are very much what should be out there. There's too many idiots in music - you have to upfront and not tolerate what you're not happy with. 

[leftybassman392]

All of the above in defence of the OP is fine and good I have no doubt, but having checked said OP again I have confirmed that both of the situations described were in fact auditions.

Unless something has changed since I stopped playing in public, the purpose of an audition is:

1. To enable the auditioners to audition the auditionee, and

2. From a slightly different dynamic, to enable the auditionee to audition the auditioners.

If either party is sufficiently unhappy with the way the encounter has developed, the solution really is childishly simple. In particular, if the auditionee doesn't like the sound the auditioners are making then all he need do is thank the auditioners for their time and walk away. Opinions on this one clearly differ somewhat, but i would respectfully suggest that concluding an audition by telling the band all the things they're doing wrong is not a good way to go if you would like a future with them - which come to think of it kind of begs the question as to why anyone would bother doing so.

At this stage in the process, being right doesn't really come into it.

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by leftybassman392

[stewblack]

The op could have been me. All my musical life I've felt folk just didn't want to listen to my opinions and ideas. 

I got lucky recently and found a way to let schit go, not try to change anything unless folk want it changed and just roll with it. 

What happened? I started playing for the money not as a hobby or release from work. Now I take any gig and realise if I want to  improve the band I can only do that through my bass playing. I can't control anyone else. If they ask I tell them otherwise I learn my parts, keep my car running and my gear working. 

Since I stopped caring about having an opinion life got a whole lot easier. 

[mikel]

2 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said:

All of the above in defence of the OP is fine and good I have no doubt, but having checked said OP again I have confirmed that both of the situations described were in fact auditions.

Unless something has changed since I stopped playing in public, the purpose of an audition is:

1. To enable the auditioners to audition the auditionee, and

2. From a slightly different dynamic, to enable the auditionee to audition the auditioners.

If either party is sufficiently unhappy with the way the encounter has developed, the solution really is childishly simple. In particular, if the auditionee doesn't like the sound the auditioners are making then all he need do is thank the auditioners for their time and walk away. Opinions on this one clearly differ somewhat, but i would respectfully suggest that concluding an audition by telling the band all the things they're doing wrong is not a good way to go if you would like a future with them - which come to think of it kind of begs the question as to why anyone would bother doing so.

Being right doesn't really come into it.

 

Thats what I said, but more succinctly. If its a try out and you dont like it, you walk. End of.

[leftybassman392]

7 minutes ago, mikel said:

Thats what I said, but more succinctly.

I suspect our posts crossed in the, er, post; but I won't tell anybody if you don't.

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by leftybassman392

[Woodinblack]

I think it is a good idea to get that out and up front. If they are not interested then it wasn't your group anyway. Some groups are very open to ideas and some aren't. If they aren't interested in your point of view then they probably will never be so good to bail.

I am in two groups, I still feel like the new guy in the band I have been with for 3 years, but fully integrated into the one I joined a few months ago.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Woodinblack

[dmccombe7]

3 hours ago, mikel said:

Well quite, but if you are simply trying out with an existing band they are not concerned with opinions. They only want to find out if you can cut it and if you fit as a personality. If you like them and the music then wait till you are a real band member and then suggest things.

Afraid not. From the word go i expect a professional and organised approach to auditions, rehearsals and subsequent gigs. If its an audition then the band should be looking more towards my competence or technique and not how loud i can play.. If a band hasn't grasped that by time i arrive or after the first song then its the wrong band to be in and time to move on. If you present a professional approach to an audition or rehearsal and get levels set according to drummers natural volume then that's a good starting point and its where i always start off. 

[musicbassman]

19 hours ago, Mickeyboro said:

I seem to have a history of being too opinionated and probably missing out as a result.

Yes Mick, me too. Never venture any opinion at all really should be my current gameplan.

Auditioned for a long term dep gig a few weeks ago. Just a rock covers band.

A new rehearsal venue for the band, apparently, and it was immediately obvious on arrival it was going to be acoustically appalling - an old village hall with brick walls and a high ceiling.

Guitarist arrives late, proceeds to turn up to 11, and suggests we 'warm up' with 'Sweet Home Alabama'.  Jeez.

I can't hear myself play at all, so when the noisefest has finished I suggest that 'maybe we need to take the volume down quite a bit'

'No', says the guitarist, 'your amp isn't loud enough'  He then avoided any eye contact or communication for the rest of the session

The evening went steadily downhill from there, and about an hour and a half later we parted, agreeing to 'stay in contact' (yeah, right)

 

 

[wateroftyne]

I've only read the OP, but it sounds to me like you don't want to be in a high school cover band.

All you can do is nudge them in the right direction... if they don't get it, walk away for your own sanity.

Keep looking...

[mikel]

11 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

Afraid not. From the word go i expect a professional and organised approach to auditions, rehearsals and subsequent gigs. If its an audition then the band should be looking more towards my competence or technique and not how loud i can play.. If a band hasn't grasped that by time i arrive or after the first song then its the wrong band to be in and time to move on. If you present a professional approach to an audition or rehearsal and get levels set according to drummers natural volume then that's a good starting point and its where i always start off. 

That's what I said. If you don't like how they rehearse, how they play, the tempo or what they play then its not for you, so you walk. Its not difficult. How many bands do you know that would sit down and listen to a newbie telling them they are doing it all wrong? None. You simply say thanks but no thanks, this band is not for me.

[UglyDog]

No, you're not. "Your guitar sound is crap" would have been opinionated. But "this is a bit too fast/loud" is both realistic and perfectly reasonable.

[Marc S]

19 hours ago, Bobthedog said:

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, it is the way that the opinion is put across that generally causes the issues.

It can also be dangerous to express opinions via eMail. Nuances and emphasis do not carry across on paper, unless one is a pretty hot writer. See some of the rows on BC. I am convinced a lot have only happened because of the medium used to get a view across. 

In short,  nowt wrong with an opinion, perhaps the timing and the way it is expressed is the issue?

Absolutely. You have to be able to have, and to express your opinion. But of course, there's no simple, hard & fast answer to this - because it depends on how you express your opinions, and of course, how the listeners interpret what you are saying. Absolutely bang on re Bob's point about doing this via email or text though. Such things are fine for checking whether members are free for a gig, or to check Saturdays venue arrangements etc - but expressing opinions via such methods, and you risk misinterpretation, or timbre of mood etc.

It's a funny thing, but as I've got older, volume wars seem to have become a bit less of an issue. Perhaps younger musicians just want to be heard more? Or perhaps older musicians realise the importance of dynamics more? Or more likely, all of our hearing is suffering more, and we can't hear above certain levels?  Of course, there are still exceptions - I do still play with one or two who like to crank up their volume, gradually - each of them is a lead guitarist, oddly enough

As a newer member or auditioning for a band, you are also something of an "outsider" - so your ability to come in and immediately start making changes is also a tricky one. Someone above posted that maybe they'd have waited another rehearsal or two before stating your points. Perhaps this is a better way forward, as you get to know how to handle the individual characters a bit better? Ultimately, if you like the bands' choice of songs and their abilities - then you like something about them, so give them a bit of time to get to know you, and you to know them, and then approach the volume & speed issues..... If that falls on deaf ears - perhaps then tell them you don't wish to continue, and calmly give them your reasons - tell them you like them as individuals, you like the repertoire - but don't want to be playing too loud / fast

No, I don't think you're opinionated, but you obviously like to get your thoughts and opinions in early. That's no bad thing, but perhaps give new tryout bands a rehearsal or two before quitting - drop some subtle, and maybe humourous "hints" along the way. But don't put up with the issues for too long - or you just end up wasting too much time, and feeling frustrated

Or buy yourself an incredibly loud bass amp, of course!

[Coilte]

I agree with the idea of being as diplomatic as possible when stating an opinion. However, with some bands, they simply dont want to hear anything that goes against the "norm" in a band, regardless of the conveying method used.  Surely, in any band worth it's salt, ALL opinions would be taken on board. 

I can identify with the OP's questions as I often asked them of myself...i.e. am I being too opinionated. After many diplomatic suggestions in bands about playing at.. "jumbo jet taking off".. volume both at gigs and rehearsals, I decided there was no fun here and walked away. I am also generally amazed at the breakneck speed that some songs are played.

In summary...OP...I agree with, and understand what you are saying.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Coilte

[Dan Dare]

In my experience, people accuse you of being "opinionated" when they don't like what you are saying, but cannot produce any good argument to refute it. What's wrong with having opinions? We all have them, whether we admit it or not.

The instances the OP describes sound like that curse of so many bands - Richard waving. Guitarists who blow the windows out, drummers who smash the kit to within an inch of its life, running away with the tempo (usually caused by the fact that people don't appreciate that their adrenal gland is in overdrive) and so on.

The problem seems to be that many who play in bands view it as some sort of release from everyday life, cares and worry. They think "I'm free. There are no rules here to tie me down. Whoopee" and proceed to go berserk. It may be therapeutic for them, but it certainly doesn't make for good music. On the plus side, I suppose it's better than getting plastered and picking fights with strangers, which is what some who are not fortunate enough to have any other form of release available to them tend to do.

If it isn't right, you have to speak up. Frustration and unhappiness awaits if you don't. If you cannot agree, it's time to go. Not worth wasting time trying to work with or round those who don't/won't get it. Plenty more fish in the sea.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Dan Dare

[Japhet]

1 hour ago, musicbassman said:

Yes Mick, me too. Never venture any opinion at all really should be my current gameplan.

Auditioned for a long term dep gig a few weeks ago. Just a rock covers band.

A new rehearsal venue for the band, apparently, and it was immediately obvious on arrival it was going to be acoustically appalling - an old village hall with brick walls and a high ceiling.

Guitarist arrives late, proceeds to turn up to 11, and suggests we 'warm up' with 'Sweet Home Alabama'.  Jeez.

I can't hear myself play at all, so when the noisefest has finished I suggest that 'maybe we need to take the volume down quite a bit'

'No', says the guitarist, 'your amp isn't loud enough'  He then avoided any eye contact or communication for the rest of the session

The evening went steadily downhill from there, and about an hour and a half later we parted, agreeing to 'stay in contact' (yeah, right)

 

 

You lasted an hour and a half longer than I would have done.

[itu]

Like @Stylon Pilson and @Marc S wrote, it is easier to comment with a question, like: "That was pretty fast, what is the idea behind this tempo?" This gives both sides the possibility to estimate it without direct accusation.

Loudness, yes, that is a hard one. If you bandmate has no more hair cells inside his head but just outside, then an easy solution is to take care of the placement of his amp: "Let's put this higher up (and closer to that player), so we can all hear your subtle nuances better..." Sure, you have to take care of the nuances of your comments, too. Remember to be the active starter and example to the others. Go lift that amp and make it happen, do not try to make him do that.

[KevB]

Yeah volume and tempo are frequently my bugbears too but only because if there are 2 easy ways of screwing up a song that has the right notes in place it's getting one or both of those features wrong. I turned down a band after 1 rehearsal because of stupid guitar volumes. When I could barely hear a full on rock drummers kit 4 feet from me there's something not right. Yet they prided themselves on how 'professional' they were.

[dmccombe7]

2 hours ago, mikel said:

That's what I said. If you don't like how they rehearse, how they play, the tempo or what they play then its not for you, so you walk. Its not difficult. How many bands do you know that would sit down and listen to a newbie telling them they are doing it all wrong? None. You simply say thanks but no thanks, this band is not for me.

We've had different experiences in bands by sounds of it Mike. 

I kind of agree on your first point that if the band is too loud or plays too fast then it may well be they aren't for me but unless i raise the issue there and then i'll never know. I'd rather say what i think and if the band don't want to turn down and take practical advice then i'd simply let them know its not for me. I wouldn't just walk without trying tho.

My experience in bands is that most good bands i've worked with have been very open to comment and value my thoughts and experience whether that be at the audition or the first few rehearsals. Different when i was younger and bands were inexperienced.Volume was the way to go back then 

I just don't get why you would walk away without commenting. You could be walking away from an excellent band that just needed a little bit of guidance from someone possibly more experienced.

Dave

Edited March 26, 2019 by dmccombe7

[Muzz]

At an audition (and I've done this), I'd just be saying (with a smile) "Well, that was...invigorating. Bit quick, though?" and the responses would tell me what I needed to know about the band. If the replies were along the lines of "Did you think so?" or "Well yeah, but we do that because..." then I'd be happy I could work with them, but if it was "No it wasn't" or "That's how we play it." then I'd know the lie of the land/band.

And I've had both...you can guess which band I didn't follow up on... 🙂