Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[Eight]

The problem with this discussion is that every time anyone tries to have it, a truckload of irrelevant and prejudicial sh*te is thrown in from both sides.

I stay interested in these threads because I think one day guitar/bass players will manage to have a discussion that is actually about reading.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478427' date='May 3 2009, 06:59 PM']OK... I'll quantify that. I'm told by sight readers and learned theorists - time and time again - that I'm some sort of 'plink-plonk' idiot because I don't read, have limited theory, etc. etc.

The fact is, I'm out there doing it. Yes, that's right - a fact.

So, when that response gets no acknowledgement, but instead is met with the same tired accusations, how else am I supposed to respond other than to deduce that it's some sort of prejudice?

I have respect for these people. It's a shame there's very little coming back the other way.[/quote]

Fortunately I know some people who read music very well and have been doing professionally and non-professionally (and sometimes unprofessionally ) for a long time, and they're very modest about it and consistently as appreciative of music made by people who have no theory as they are of music made by people with loads of classical training. That tends to make up for dudes who seem to think that if you don't know what they know then you don't know [i]anything[/i].

[Eight]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478427' date='May 3 2009, 06:59 PM']OK... I'll quantify that. I'm told by sight readers and learned theorists - time and time again - that I'm some sort of 'plink-plonk' player because I don't read, have limited theory, etc. etc.[/quote]
You've met some arseholes.

The guides for music theory and notation don't have a chapter on insulting people, I promise.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478429' date='May 3 2009, 07:01 PM']Yep.. the thread started with "Interested to hear any opinions on preferred method of learning existing basslines.

For those who play by ear, do you always know what notes you are playing on the bass by the letter or do you just work on imitation? Do you know what the notes are on each fret on all strings, or again, just work by ear?
"

So the people who can read music gave their 2p worth and their advice on what they think is the best way. Then the non readers jump in and assassinate.

As I said, f*** it, I am out of here, it's starting to get a bit like the freemasons...................[/quote]

?

There isn't a post along these lines until #20. And that's BBC, who doesn't count.

The rest are from readers and non-readers who are very cool about both approaches. As they should be.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Eight' post='478432' date='May 3 2009, 07:07 PM']You've met some arseholes.[/quote]
I know.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478434' date='May 3 2009, 07:07 PM']?

. And that's BBC, who doesn't count.[/quote]

Now you've made me want to give that reprobate a hug jeez

[rslaing]

[quote name='Eight' post='478432' date='May 3 2009, 07:07 PM']You've met some arseholes.

The guides for music theory and notation don't have a chapter on insulting people, I promise.[/quote]

But the book for people who don't want to learn to read and write music obviously does...................

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478447' date='May 3 2009, 07:17 PM']But the book for people who don't want to learn to read and write music obviously does...................[/quote]

[quote]"it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting."

"people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering"

"I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities"[/quote]

I wonder who wrote that?

I thought you were going, anyway?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478427' date='May 3 2009, 06:59 PM']So, when that response gets no acknowledgement, but instead is met with the same tired accusations, how else am I supposed to respond other than to deduce that it's some sort of prejudice?

I have respect for these people. It's a shame there's very little coming back the other way.[/quote]

That's the thing though... it's a dumb argument, and why should you care what Bilbo thinks?

[rslaing]

QUOTE
"it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting."

"people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering"

"I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities"


I wonder who wrote that?

I thought you were going, anyway? "

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't want to get equally personal. I really just wanted to make a valid contribution from personal experience, my points made are done so on the back of around 35 years of teaching. But you might have a point, perhaps the hundred or so pupils I have worked with are the exception........................(I doubt it) - regardless, these are just my opinions, and I suggest you don't let them affect you (as they seem to be).

The facts from my experience are that the players that have attained a higher level of musicianship - have also learned to read music as well as develop their ear. But as I said, I am open to being proven wrong by other peoples experience.

If someone is happy toddling along learning bass patterns "off pat" and by copying other players, thats fine too. But it is my belief that they are limiting their potential and their enjoyment of what they are doing.

I just think that players can experience more and develop themselves to a higher level by learning to read and write music.

Edited May 3, 2009 by rslaing

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478461' date='May 3 2009, 07:34 PM']QUOTE
"it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting."

"people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering"

"I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities"


I wonder who wrote that?

I thought you were going, anyway? "

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't want to get equally personal.[/quote]

When you say that, do you mean you don't want to get as personally insulting as you were being when you slagged off my degree that you know sod-all about, or perhaps when you indirectly insulted me - and every other musician on this board or elsewhere who for whatever reason doesn't read music - by calling us lazy, creatively limited and whatever else you said up there?

[quote]I really just wanted to make a valid contribution from personal experience, my points made are done so on the back of around 35 years of teaching. But you might have a point, perhaps the hundred or so pupils I have worked with are the exception........................(I doubt it) - regardless, these are just my opinions, and I suggest you don't let them affect you (as they seem to be).

The facts from my experience are that the players that have attained a higher level of musicianship - have also learned to read music as well as develop their ear. But as I said, I am open to being proven wrong by other peoples experience.[/quote]

That's hilarious. You've as much as categorically stated that any musician who doesn't read music is inevitably lazy and sh*t. You expect us to believe that you're now "open" to the notion that people who don't read music might be worthy of your attention?

[quote]If someone is happy toddling along learning bass patterns "off pat" and by copying other players, thats fine too. But it is my belief that they are limiting their potential and their enjoyment of what they are doing.

I just think that players can experience more and develop themselves to a higher level by learning to read and write music.[/quote]

Yeah, because that's all non-readers do, "toddle off" bass patterns and copy other people. Whereas readers, meanwhile, are indulging in a festival of unbridled creativity, correct?

Dude, seriously. Do you have any idea how arrogant, condescending and close-minded you're coming across as?

[rslaing]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478477' date='May 3 2009, 08:02 PM']When you say that, do you mean you don't want to get as personally insulting as you were being when you slagged off my degree that you know sod-all about, or perhaps when you indirectly insulted me - and every other musician on this board or elsewhere who for whatever reason doesn't read music - by calling us lazy, creatively limited and whatever else you said up there?



That's hilarious. You've as much as categorically stated that any musician who doesn't read music is inevitably lazy and sh*t. You expect us to believe that you're now "open" to the notion that people who don't read music might be worthy of your attention?



Yeah, because that's all non-readers do, "toddle off" bass patterns and copy other people. Whereas readers, meanwhile, are indulging in a festival of unbridled creativity, correct?

Dude, seriously. Do you have any idea how arrogant, condescending and close-minded you're coming across as?[/quote]

Perhaps a close second to you. Sorry that I don't write what you want to read. But maybe that isn't important - as in music?

Edited May 3, 2009 by rslaing

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='rslaing' date='May 3 2009, 07:34 PM' post='478461'
The facts from my experience are that the players that have attained a higher level of musicianship - have also learned to read music as well as develop their ear. But as I said, I am open to being proven wrong by other peoples experience.

If someone is happy toddling along learning bass patterns "off pat" and by copying other players, thats fine too. But it is my belief that they are limiting their potential and their enjoyment of what they are doing.
[/quote]

So, there are two kinds of people 1. higher level musicians who have learned to read notation and 2. people who are happy toddling along learning bass patterns 'off pat' etc.

I'm all for musicians learning to read but that claim is complete boll**ks.

Edited May 3, 2009 by EssentialTension

[ARGH]

Try..just try and think of it like this...

Bassplaying is a job...I hate to denigrate 'Art'...but its a job,and the more qualified a person is at that job,they tend to get the work,the quality of work is better,and in general they tend to be quicker.

Ok speed isn't always a good thing,there are always exceptions to the rule (for Leland Sklar,there's Mick Karn , for Bill Bruford,there's Dennis Chambers)...If you can make it,and make it well,without having to have the need to read,then fine,great....I bet your ears can burn a landscape.

Walk with me on this one...(as the cobbler says)

I could open a shoe repair shop,without boring you,there tends to be 2 types of stitching on a Leather soled shoe,insole stitches (known in the biz as Blake) and Outsole stitching (Goodyear....where the stitches attach to a welt)...Both require different machines to do the essentailly same job..attaching a sole to a shoe....but some Shoes just HAVE to be attached in a perticular way...Yet you still get some Cobblers that just Glue and Nail...It does the job,but its not as long lasting,is not really a professional way of completion,and to be frank...its a bodge...its not as long lasting...but its to some a satisfactory repair,its cheap,and less time consuming.

Both Blake and Goodyear machines cost a wedge,take a LOT of maintainence,require time and patience to get the best results.....and have to be taught correctly, both in said maintainence and useage....Throw in the cost and the general lack of Leather being worn in fashion,and the costs involved....basically its the law of supply and demand,do you spend the X to have the full,complete,and perfect job,or do you just need the temporary,quick fix....Some people dont need £60 of Rendenbach Leather and 1/4 rubber heel,nailed onto a balanced,ink'd,ironed,buffed,and polished shoe....

But the quality of the finished product is there to see.......


Think of it as another way......Does an infantry soldier go into battle with half his weaponry? No,he is trained to fight in full battle gear,ammo,grenades,Mortars whatever...to fight as part of a team,as part of the battleplan,as part of his-self...in a Life/death situation. A sapper without knowledge of weakpoints or explosives...a Logistics officer without the ability to use alternatives from a compass to find Geographical north.....

Its not to say they aint worth salt,because they are....but they without the skills needed,they aint the finished product,not what Im paying for,and to be honest,If they were trained to a standard where they didnt know the adequate skills needed to do they're job..then its murder,and if in a war....cannon fodder,and good night Vienna for the British army.

-----------------------


Bassplaying isn't life or death... being able to read isn't life or death,quit arguing,its a bit boring

But learning to read does not take forever,and its always good..better than good,to have all the tools in the box when called upon,you may never need to EVER...But it might be once in a lifetime..in our business..the music business.....that once is often all it takes.....


..............or all you ever get.





-------

BBC....Loud playing Rock God,drug taking,life at the Max,Die in a strippers arms..coked off your tits,millions of Lps sold and not a soiling of uncool.... The man could read,brilliantly played Many instruments,scored,could improv at a hats drop,and changed the way we play forever....2 words

John Entwistle....

------

Good shoe repair is when you can get yourself out of the sh*t your cause.......Music is the same.

[ironside1966]

I am firmly in the pro reading camp but just because you are not musical literate does not mean what you do is not relevant.
Punk and Blues for instance both where born out of musical ignorance and a lot of world music is not written down.

The Sex pistols contributed more to modern music then any jazz band playing to 3 men and a dog in a pub

But I agree there is nothing to be gained by not learning to read.

[rslaing]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='478498' date='May 3 2009, 08:33 PM']But I agree there is nothing to be gained by not learning to read.[/quote]

Thank you. My point entirely

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478429' date='May 3 2009, 07:01 PM']So the people who can read music gave their 2p worth and their advice on what they think is the best way. Then the non readers jump in and assassinate.

As I said, f*** it, I am out of here, it's starting to get a bit like the freemasons...................[/quote]


You've been one of the most aggresive, provocative and patronising posters on this thread, and you're complaining about the non-readers??!!

Some people read, some don't. It's a personal choice. Its not through laziness that people don't learn (well, not in every instance). To some people, the percieved rewards aren't worth the effort. If I could read, it would be a redundent skill for the musicians I play with. One day, I might learn.

Likewise, I maintain that the majority of music you readers churn out is crap. It's like anything. Once you start getting geeky about things, it turns crap. If you play metal and add some geekiness, what have you got? Progressive metal. Which in my book makes you worse than a sex offender. Same with films, get geeky about it and you start watching 4hr long french art-house in black and white whilst smoking cafe cremes. Football? Same again. You go from arguing about the effectiveness of Peter Crouch with your mates down the pub to memorising the 1983 Bristol Rovers Reserve Squad.

Ironside was right in regards to his comments on punk and blues. Born out of "musical ignorance". Send those same players to Berklee for three years and they'd come back playing that the type of water-boarding jazz that a lot of you pretend to like.

The world needs players who read, there will always be sessions to record and jingles to perform. But the world also needs the variety, quirks and f***-ups created by those who have never had a lesson in their life.

[Eight]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']Likewise, I maintain that the majority of music you readers churn out is crap. It's like anything. Once you start getting geeky about things, it turns crap.[/quote]
Reading has no baring at all on the kind of music you make. It's [i]one[/i] well-established and comprehensive system for accessing and recording music. But that's it. How (or if) you use it is up to you.

Again, other elements far beyond the scope of reading music are being brought in here to try and make a point.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Eight' post='478544' date='May 3 2009, 09:09 PM']Reading has no baring at all on the kind of music you make. It's [i]one[/i] well-established and comprehensive system for accessing and recording music. But that's it. How (or if) you use it is up to you.

Again, other elements far beyond the scope of reading music are being brought in here to try and make a point.[/quote]

Either people who make crap music are drawn to learning to read, or people who learn to read make crap music. Not sure which is true, but one of them definitely is. Or maybe its both?

Whatever.

Bilbo used to be a right stud, leather trousers, long hair, thrusting groin, mother and daughter 3-somes. Learnt to read, now he's stuck in deepest darkest suffolk, working for "the man" and playing music that not even his dogs want to listen too.

Edited May 3, 2009 by BigBeefChief

[rslaing]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']You've been one of the most aggresive, provocative and patronising posters on this thread, and you're complaining about the non-readers??!![/quote]

You mean I can't comment on something I feel strongly about? Like you never have?


[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']Some people read, some don't. It's a personal choice. Its not through laziness that people don't learn (well, not in every instance). To some people, the percieved rewards aren't worth the effort. If I could read, it would be a redundent skill for the musicians I play with. One day, I might learn.[/quote] Great.........

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']Likewise, I maintain that the majority of music you readers churn out is crap. It's like anything. Once you start getting geeky about things, it turns crap. If you play metal and add some geekiness, what have you got? Progressive metal. Which in my book makes you worse than a sex offender. Same with films, get geeky about it and you start watching 4hr long french art-house in black and white whilst smoking cafe cremes. Football? Same again. You go from arguing about the effectiveness of Peter Crouch with your mates down the pub to memorising the 1983 Bristol Rovers Reserve Squad.[/quote] Been on the out of date Tixylix again?

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']Ironside was right in regards to his comments on punk and blues. Born out of "musical ignorance". Send those same players to Berklee for three years and they'd come back playing that the type of water-boarding jazz that a lot of you pretend to like.[/quote]
Not necessarily, they might just be able to extract what they have learned and add it to what they like, then become all round players.......

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']The world needs players who read, there will always be sessions to record and jingles to perform. But the world also needs the variety, quirks and f***-ups created by those who have never had a lesson in their life.[/quote]

Good point.........but I can't be arsed to try and convert another non reader in to the benefits of being able to understand why it is so important to understand a least a little of music theory. So I give in...........you win.

[rslaing]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478551' date='May 3 2009, 09:17 PM']Either people who make crap music are drawn to learning to read, or people who learn to read make crap music. Not sure which is true, but one of them definitely is. Or maybe its both?

Whatever.

Bilbo used to be a right stud, leather trousers, long hair, thrusting groin, mother and daughter 3-somes. Learnt to read, now he's stuck in deepest darkest suffolk, working for "the man" and playing music that not even his dogs want to listen too.[/quote]

So the musical ability of an individual is down to your appearance? Maybe that explains why so many people on here buy and sell so much gear, the look of it improves their musical competence

Seriously..........if players spent as much time practising as they did on researching equipment, they would be great musicians. Surely music is all about the notes PRODUCED by the instrument..not the other way around?

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478481' date='May 3 2009, 08:08 PM']Perhaps a close second to you. Sorry that I don't write what you want to read. But maybe that isn't important - as in music?[/quote]

I give up. For someone who reckons he's so clever, you're spectacularly obtuse. Not that my point needs making any more clearly. You're on your own here, pal. Well, you and the rest of the guys down at the REAL Musicians' club.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478551' date='May 3 2009, 09:17 PM']Either people who make crap music are drawn to learning to read, or people who learn to read make crap music. Not sure which is true, but one of them definitely is. Or maybe its both?

Whatever.

Bilbo used to be a right stud, leather trousers, long hair, thrusting groin, mother and daughter 3-somes. Learnt to read, now he's stuck in deepest darkest suffolk, working for "the man" and playing music that not even his dogs want to listen too.[/quote]

Learning to read is not elitist it is not only for jazzes and boring for what you think is boring or musical w@ing in fact there are plenty of non readers who are self indulgent.
if you have used a tab (a ot of tabs are wrong) or leant as bass line from a cd then reading would have been use full to you I bet some of the bass lines you love have been done by session men because studio time is money

Edited May 3, 2009 by ironside1966

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478552' date='May 3 2009, 09:18 PM']Good point.........but I can't be arsed to try and convert another non reader in to the benefits of being able to understand why it is so important to understand a least a little of music theory. So I give in...........you win.[/quote]


There's nothing to convert! I understand an amount of music theory. I find it interesting. I also appreciate that there are plenty of musicians who are infinitely better than me that know absolutely no theory. I also don't believe that by learning to read they would definitely become better musicians. I judge the ability of a musician by the noises they make, not what they can write in a book.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478562' date='May 3 2009, 09:28 PM']There's nothing to convert! I understand an amount of music theory. I find it interesting. I also appreciate that there are plenty of musicians who are infinitely better than me that know absolutely no theory. I also don't believe that by learning to read they would definitely become better musicians. I judge the ability of a musician by the noises they make, not what they can write in a book.[/quote]

No no, you don't get it. You don't know how to read music as well as rslaing, ergo you're a musical imbecile. And lazy, to boot. Me too, man. There's a lot of us about. But we're only kidding ourselves. We're not REAL musicians.

We're [i]imaginary[/i] musicians.