Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479257' date='May 4 2009, 07:22 PM']Definition:- "a moderate is an individual who holds an intermediate position between two viewpoints, neither to be extreme or radical by those applying the term"

Maybe your "job" title should be changed, because your contributions certainly aren't impartial.[/quote]
Ah - I see what you did there. You looked up 'moderate'.

Look closely at the word.. it's actually 'moderator':

[i]n. One who presides over a meeting, forum, or debate.[/i]

PM is the place for this - by all means speak to another mod if you wish.

[rslaing]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='479258' date='May 4 2009, 07:23 PM']I think the fact that John Schofield chose to re interpret those classics suggests he holds Ray Charles in higher regard than to call him cornball, and your 'POP' music description suggests that you seem to think you're thinking somewhere higher than all that, if thats the case then as a person employed in music education I think you should possibly re visit your reasoning.

Music for people (indeed the populous) is valid.

Cornball is your judgement only, and despite feeling your advocacy for reading has at times been well placed I'm beginning to see you more in an elitist light. You're welcome to your position on the integrity of types of music but you have no place being high minded about the value of music in the eyes or ears of the listener.[/quote]

Just my opinion................

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479264' date='May 4 2009, 07:27 PM']Just my opinion................[/quote]

... Which makes you an elitist, man. Sorry, but there it is, right there. You're a massive, massive elitist. At least admit it, so it's perfectly clear to everyone that you're convinced you're better than the rest of us, and we can all get on with our lives.

[rslaing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='479262' date='May 4 2009, 07:25 PM']Ah - I see what you did there. You looked up 'moderate'.

Look closely at the word.. it's actually 'moderator':

[i]n. One who presides over a meeting, forum, or debate.[/i]

PM is the place for this - by all means speak to another mod if you wish.[/quote]

Moderate, moderator, moderation...forget the semantics. In plain english, anyone who is given the task of moderation should do just that. Otherwise it is not moderation, it's casting opinion and potentially an influence, and certainly not impartial "moderation"

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479276' date='May 4 2009, 07:34 PM']Moderate, moderator, moderation...forget the semantics. In plain english, anyone who is given the task of moderation should do just that. Otherwise it is not moderation, it's casting opinion and potentially an influence, and certainly not impartial "moderation"[/quote]

And if this were the UN Security Council, it would probably be a big deal.

Get over it, man.

[rslaing]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='479270' date='May 4 2009, 07:32 PM']... Which makes you an elitist, man. Sorry, but there it is, right there. You're a massive, massive elitist. At least admit it, so it's perfectly clear to everyone that you're convinced you're better than the rest of us, and we can all get on with our lives.[/quote]

No, not elitist, just very opinionated, and those opinions are based on personal experience of many years. And no matter how you attempt to undermine my beliefs with irrelevant aspersions and personal attacks, you will not convince me (as others who have also commented) that not being able to read music is an advantage to a musician.

I respect your opinion, but not your abuse.

[MythSte]

I'd like to see this stay on topic now please Ladies and Gentlemen.

If anyone has any problems with the moderation feel free to PM any one of us. Sometimes we all have to agree to disagree and whatnot dont we! Come now, Lets sit down and have a cold one. Yeahhhh.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479290' date='May 4 2009, 07:39 PM']No, not elitist, just very opinionated, and those opinions are based on personal experience of many years. And no matter how you attempt to undermine my beliefs with irrelevant aspersions and personal attacks, you will not convince me (as others who have also commented) that not being able to read music is an advantage to a musician.

I respect your opinion, but not your abuse.[/quote]

Okay, deep breath:

NO ONE. Is. Trying. To. Convince. You. That. Not. Being. Able. To. Read. Music. Is. An. Advantage.

Seriously, you made that up all by yourself.

And if believing that your membership to a certain group of people (e.g. people who read music) automatically makes you superior to another group (e.g. people who don't read music) isn't elitism, then I don't know what is.

[wateroftyne]

Righty-ho.. my last post on this. Really.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='479296' date='May 4 2009, 07:44 PM']NO ONE. Is. Trying. To. Convince. You. That. Not. Being. Able. To. Read. Music. Is. An. Advantage.

Seriously, you made that up all by yourself.[/quote]

Read the above, and then read it again. It's all true.

Toodle-pip!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479264' date='May 4 2009, 07:27 PM']Just my opinion................[/quote]

Opinion it may be but as a *one time music education professional to another (Bass tutor and ensemble musicianship tutor Salford university. Bass, theory, business studies lecturer 'The Arts Centre' Liverpool) I'm challenging your positioning on impartiality in delivering material to the young musicians of this country, I feel it's more than a little 'Ivory Tower' to talk about the merits of a Jazz Guitarists output whilst feeling the need to place 'POP' music in capitals and quotation marks as though you feel dirty handling them, and describing Ray Charles as cornball and intimating that Stevie Wonders' worth is simply as a "good POP writer" these are serious and valid contributions to the history of music and in my mind carry a similar import to Bach, through Gerswin and into contemporary modern music.

I am remembering that this is a forum for debate so please see this as an intellectual challenge, I am in no way wishing to descend into the insulting foray we have seen earlier, however my points are very seriously put to you for consideration.

*I say 'one time music education professional' as I only had a teaching career while my kids were young I am now a full time bass player, producer, and MD.

Edited May 4, 2009 by jakesbass

[rslaing]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='479296' date='May 4 2009, 07:44 PM']Okay, deep breath:

NO ONE. Is. Trying. To. Convince. You. That. Not. Being. Able. To. Read. Music. Is. An. Advantage.

Seriously, you made that up all by yourself.

And if believing that your membership to a certain group of people (e.g. people who read music) automatically makes you superior to another group (e.g. people who don't read music) isn't elitism, then I don't know what is.[/quote]

Having the ability to read and write music is a distinct advantage for a musician. As is being able to be able to read and write in any language.

The non music readers don't appear to think so. For various reasons, varying from they have had other things to do to they have had no need to bother.

I will continue for as long as I live, to preach the benefits of a well rounded musical education and unless someone can convince me otherwise, I will retain my opinion. And I expect that whilst I do that, there will be many who will try to justify their own reasons not to advance their abilities. No problem. I certainly do not consider the ability to read music as making me superior to anyone, as you are trying to infer. It really is not that important. But as you can see, (without getting personal, or typing with full stops in between words to attempt to make my point), I feel very strongly about it, and will never understand why anyone who is a musician would not want to learn to read and have the ability to write music.

Please do not attempt to ridicule people's opinions, just give your own.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479327' date='May 4 2009, 08:02 PM']Having the ability to read and write music is a distinct advantage for a musician. As is being able to be able to read and write in any language.

The non music readers don't appear to think so. For various reasons, varying from they have had other things to do to they have had no need to bother.[/quote]

Sure, but that's not the same thing as claiming that not reading music gives us an [i]advantage[/i], is it.

[quote]I will continue for as long as I live, to preach the benefits of a well rounded musical education and unless someone can convince me otherwise, I will retain my opinion. And I expect that whilst I do that, there will be many who will try to justify their own reasons not to advance their abilities. No problem. I certainly do not consider the ability to read music as making me superior to anyone, as you are trying to infer. It really is not that important. But as you can see, (without getting personal, or typing with full stops in between words to attempt to make my point), I feel very strongly about it, and will never understand why anyone who is a musician would not want to learn to read and have the ability to write music.

Please do not attempt to ridicule people's opinions, just give your own.[/quote]

Mate, I'll stop ridiculing your opinions when you stop having ridiculous opinions. Such as for instance that all non-readers are lazy or creatively limited, or not "REAL musicians" (quoted virtually verbatim from your posts). You see, that might be your opinion, but it's also firstly obviously false and secondly quite insulting to anyone concerned. And it comes across as arrogant, ignorant, condescending, and yes, elitist. Even though that may not be your intention.

[BigBeefChief]

I've heard rslaing's playing, and when the dust settles, he will remembered long after Stevie Wonder is all forgotten about.

I mean, Stevie Wonder, it's just "POP" innit?

Ray Charles? That actor from the Blues Brothers? A poor man's David Essex if you ask me.

If they were REAL musicians, they wouldn't need that whole "blind" gimmick.

[The Burpster]

Mudslinging in theory and technique.......?


Excellent.....

I have just drudged though 16 pages to see what the fuss is about, in honesty I'm still not sure.

Noone has any objection to passionate debate, I find it hard to understand why some of you get so hung up in your own beliefs that others who may choose to disagree set themselves up to be targets of petty bickering.


Please keep it on track from now on or this topic will be closed, which would be a shame beacuse there is some excellent contributions thus far and very good arguments for and against.


Me, I have no opinion as I struggle with it all equally, reading, playing by tab or ear.

Then I'm not a professional musician, if I were I guess I'd take them all more seriously.

[rslaing]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='479307' date='May 4 2009, 07:48 PM']Opinion it may be but as a *one time music education professional to another (Bass tutor and ensemble musicianship tutor Salford university. Bass, theory, business studies lecturer 'The Arts Centre' Liverpool) I'm challenging your positioning on impartiality in delivering material to the young musicians of this country, I feel it's more than a little 'Ivory Tower' to talk about the merits of a Jazz Guitarists output whilst feeling the need to place 'POP' music in capitals and quotation marks as though you feel dirty handling them, and describing Ray Charles as cornball and intimating that Stevie Wonders' worth is simply as a "good POP writer" these are serious and valid contributions to the history of music and in my mind carry a similar import to Bach, through Gerswin and into contemporary modern music.

I am remembering that this is a forum for debate so please see this as an intellectual challenge, I am in no way wishing to descend into the insulting foray we have seen earlier, however my points are very seriously put to you for consideration.

*I say 'one time music education professional' as I only had a teaching career while my kids were young I am now a full time bass player, producer, and MD.[/quote]

I accept your opinion entirely, and respect your answer. I also agree with a number of your points, but that is probably not important to the"baiters" who might be following the thread.

However, I also have my own musical opinions, and pop/commercial music has about the same value as nursery rhymes to me. I don't castigate people that like it though. It is their choice.

Just my opinion and preference. I listen to a diverse catalogue of music and musicians. I prefer classical music, and modern jazz but don't expect anyone else to do so. The reason I listen to my preferences is because not only is it more challenging to play, , and to me, fulfilling but (sorry for the inference before I get shot down in flames again) I would use the cliche that most of the stuff around now is just "bubble gum for the brain". And performed by a lot of talentless, mass produced drones. And not very well. Unfortunately, this sort of crap is all the kids want to aspire to, and my theory is backed up by what we see and hear on MTV etc.

Countries that hold high levels of all round, quality musicians with unbelievable skill (who can probably all read music) do exist. But you have to go to Japan for classical, and Italy, for "proper" jazz, if that is your preference.

I am not alone in my belief that there is a lack of development of young musicians in this country. The quality of live music has drastically deteriorated in the last 20 years due to too many factors to attempt to mention here. The inability of the educators to encourage potential is in no small way due to the lack of funding, foresight, and not the benefits of musicianship (to those that are inclined towards a musical career).

One thing is for sure, unless a musician aspires to be able to play stuff that others can't (unless he is intent on being an average amateur - which is fine too) he will not improve his potential. And I also believe that unless"we" try to elevate standards, we will see in our lifetime, a severe deterioration of capable musicians performing live. Sad.

Hence my stand on suggesting that musicians do whatever they can to become more learned, and not just to take the course of least resistance - which is unfortunately human nature - when it comes to developing musicianship. And that includes learning to read and write music, whether or not it APPEARS to be important. It is.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479359' date='May 4 2009, 08:37 PM']Countries that hold high levels of all round, quality musicians with unbelievable skill (who can probably all read music) do exist. But you have to go to Japan for classical, and Italy, for "proper" jazz, if that is your preference.[/quote]


Can we get you a plane ticket?

[AM1]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='479349' date='May 4 2009, 08:25 PM']Mudslinging in theory and technique.......?


Excellent.....

I have just drudged though 16 pages to see what the fuss is about, in honesty I'm still not sure.

Noone has any objection to passionate debate, I find it hard to understand why some of you get so hung up in your own beliefs that others who may choose to disagree set themselves up to be targets of petty bickering.

Please keep it on track from now on or this topic will be closed, which would be a shame beacuse there is some excellent contributions thus far and very good arguments for and against.

Me, I have no opinion as I struggle with it all equally, reading, playing by tab or ear.

Then I'm not a professional musician, if I were I guess I'd take them all more seriously.[/quote]

Before I make any further responses on the actual subject matter of the thread, I believe that there are some serious moderation issues here, which need to be rectified.

When a potentially useful discussion has descended to the level that we see here, with very late intervention by moderators, the interests of the membership of this forum are not being served appropriately.

The commentators whom are unable to calmly discuss the merits of music methodology and whom have to result to personal insults should be penalised when they descend to this level, not moderators simply threatening to close threads.

Why should the majority be deprived of useful debate because of the actions of a few?

Furthermore, any moderator who gets involved in a thread debate, cannot and should not then, moderate in the same thread. It is simply not impartial use of moderation. A moderator who is not involved in the discussion, is the appropriate person to moderate and that rule should be applied across the board here because this theme of discussions descending into insulting chaos is all too common, to the detriment of this forum.

[rslaing]

[quote name='AM1' post='479367' date='May 4 2009, 08:45 PM']Before I make any further responses on the actual subject matter of the thread, I believe that there are some serious moderation issues here, which need to be rectified.

When a potentially useful discussion has descended to the level that we see here, with very late intervention by moderators, the interests of the membership of this forum are not being served appropriately.

The commentators whom are unable to calmly discuss the merits of music methodology and whom have to result to personal insults should be penalised when they descend to this level, not moderators simply threatening to close threads.

Why should the majority be deprived of useful debate because of the actions of a few?

Furthermore, any moderator who gets involved in a thread debate, cannot and should not then, moderate in the same thread. It is simply not impartial use of moderation. A moderator who is not involved in the discussion, is the appropriate person to moderate and that rule should be applied across the board here because this theme of discussions descending into insulting chaos is all too common, to the detriment of this forum.[/quote]

Excellent news. Thank you.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='AM1' post='479367' date='May 4 2009, 08:45 PM']Before I make any further responses on the actual subject matter of the thread........[/quote]


You mean there's more to come?



Lucky us.....

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479359' date='May 4 2009, 08:37 PM']One thing is for sure, unless a musician aspires to be able to play stuff that others can't (unless he is intent on being an average amateur - which is fine too) he will not improve his potential.[/quote]


Maybe I'm missing the point here. Everytime i practice am I supposed to be aiming to play things that others can't? I've been concentrating on playing things that sound good!

What a fool I've been!

[The Burpster]

[quote name='AM1' post='479367' date='May 4 2009, 08:45 PM']Furthermore, any moderator who gets involved in a thread debate, cannot and should not then, moderate in the same thread. It is simply not impartial use of moderation. A moderator who is not involved in the discussion, is the appropriate person to moderate and that rule should be applied across the board here because this theme of discussions descending into insulting chaos is all too common, to the detriment of this forum.[/quote]

Errrm isnt that what I was doing?

[AM1]

[quote name='rslaing' post='479359' date='May 4 2009, 08:37 PM']Just my opinion and preference. I listen to a diverse catalogue of music and musicians. I prefer classical music, and modern jazz but don't expect anyone else to do so. The reason I listen to my preferences is because not only is it more challenging to play, , and to me, fulfilling but (sorry for the inference before I get shot down in flames again) I would use the cliche that most of the stuff around now is just "bubble gum for the brain". And performed by a lot of talentless, mass produced drones. And not very well. Unfortunately, this sort of crap is all the kids want to aspire to, and my theory is backed up by what we see and hear on MTV etc.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. I greatly enjoy classical music as well. The very notion of musical composition, particularly for a genre such as classical, without the ability to read and transcribe is simply ludicrous.

[quote name='rslaing' post='479359' date='May 4 2009, 08:37 PM']I am not alone in my belief that there is a lack of development of young musicians in this country. The quality of live music has drastically deteriorated in the last 20 years due to too many factors to attempt to mention here. The inability of the educators to encourage potential is in no small way due to the lack of funding, foresight, and not the benefits of musicianship (to those that are inclined towards a musical career).[/quote]

Again, I couldn't agree more. It is well and good playing by ear but for many musicians, there is only so far they can go with this method. To become truly outstanding, a greater amount of diversity of learning methodology is an absolute necessity. This cannot be superceded, if one wants to play certain genres of music. As to the points about popular music, a vast majority of the session backing musicians have the dual arsenal of skills in their weaponry, from a great ear to the ability to read music. Recording is expensive and the musicians whom can speak the language are the most time and cost efficient. A composer writing down a few chords and trying to teach musicians their music by ear, is a time consuming process, compared to with a reader of music, whom will reasonably expect to be able to fairly quickly read a written piece and understand key composition elements, for example, dynamics and phrasing.

[quote name='rslaing' post='479359' date='May 4 2009, 08:37 PM']One thing is for sure, unless a musician aspires to be able to play stuff that others can't (unless he is intent on being an average amateur - which is fine too) he will not improve his potential. And I also believe that unless"we" try to elevate standards, we will see in our lifetime, a severe deterioration of capable musicians performing live. Sad.[/quote]

Again, I agree. There is an insidious culture appearing in music regarding the capability that we should still be able to expect and the erosion of outstanding musicians is happening partly because of this "acceptance" of average amateurs as the industry standard.

[quote name='rslaing' post='479359' date='May 4 2009, 08:37 PM']Hence my stand on suggesting that musicians do whatever they can to become more learned, and not just to take the course of least resistance - which is unfortunately human nature - when it comes to developing musicianship. And that includes learning to read and write music, whether or not it APPEARS to be important. It is.[/quote]

For musicians to become more learned, half the battle is overcoming this increasingly prevalent mentality that shunning the rudiments of music in favour of playing by ear, is the way forward. It is not, for many musicians who ignore the basic building blocks available, they will hit a wall and the difference between being average, or being outstanding is partly determined by mental attitude and how one progresses through those walls.

[BigBeefChief]

Nah, it's only bass. Play the root, the odd pentatonic fill, show up on time and don't shag the singers missus. You're a pro. Job done.

[rslaing]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='479376' date='May 4 2009, 08:54 PM']Maybe I'm missing the point here. Everytime i practice am I supposed to be aiming to play things that others can't? I've been concentrating on playing things that sound good!

What a fool I've been![/quote]

The idea of being able to master the difficult stuff (that sounds good) is so that you can play the other stuff with ease. Both technically and by applying your own "feel/groove/whatever". You are not missing the point, I just didn't explain myself properly.

And to keep this on topic, being able to read makes this easier to do.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='479385' date='May 4 2009, 09:08 PM']Nah, it's only bass. Play the root, the odd pentatonic fill, show up on time and don't shag the singers missus. You're a pro. Job done.[/quote]

Single most intelligent post in this thread.

If you're approaching music as a means to 'improve yourself' at the expense of 'having fun', you are getting it dead wrong. Take up bridge or judo or something.