Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Eight' post='480776' date='May 6 2009, 11:21 AM']Except all things being equal - someone who can read has access to all of the opportunities reading brings, and all of the opportunities reading isn't required for.[/quote]

That's not strictly true.

It is true, of course, that I don't have access to many of the opportunities that rslaing, for instance, has access to, because I can't read and he can.

On the other hand, I'd hazard a guess that of the numerous opportunities that I've had in my (admittedly short) career, the majority would not have been offered to rslaing, because he doesn't have some of the musical skills that I possess.

It's horses for courses. But I wouldn't presume to tell anyone that they're in an inferior position to me because they don't have the same skill set.

[Eight]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480833' date='May 6 2009, 11:05 AM']On the other hand, I'd hazard a guess that of the numerous opportunities that I've had in my (admittedly short) career, the majority would not have been offered to rslaing, because he doesn't have some of the musical skills that I possess.[/quote]
Not what I said.

Unless you're suggesting Rslaing *can't* have the skills you have *because* he can read; or that someone wouldn't have offered him the opportunity *because* he can read then its a different kettle of turnips.

You got the jobs on your skills, but you don't have those skills *because* you never learned to read. You got those skills because you did, it just so happens you never learned to read. Rslaing might have them too.

I say Rslaing, since I almost certainly don't.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Eight

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Eight' post='480840' date='May 6 2009, 12:08 PM']Not what I said.

Unless you're suggesting Rslaing *can't* have the skills you have *because* he can read; or that someone wouldn't have offered him the opportunity *because* he can read then its a different kettle of turnips.

You got the jobs on your skills, but you don't have those skills *because* you never learned to read. You got those skills because you did, it just so happens you never learned to read.[/quote]

Well sure. But what you said is "someone who can read has access to all of the opportunities reading brings, and all of the opportunities reading isn't required for"

rslaing has access to all the opportunities reading brings, but crucially not ALL the opportunities reading isn't required for.

Sure, he could learn stuff to gain access to those opportunities, just as I could learn to read music to gain access to the ones that he has.

But his position is not currently superior to mine. I have access to stuff he doesn't, and he has access to stuff I don't.

Which I guess actually puts [i]him[/i] at a disadvantage, because whereas I'd happily learn to read music if I needed to, based on a lot of the stuff he says he probably wouldn't touch many of the skills I have with a bargepole because he thinks they're pointless and beneath him.

I'm not assuming that all readers are the same as him, btw.

[Eight]

Leave the superior aspect out - I've never said anything along those lines.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480851' date='May 6 2009, 11:15 AM']rslaing has access to all the opportunities reading brings, but crucially not ALL the opportunities reading isn't required for.

Sure, he could learn stuff to gain access to those opportunities, just as I could learn to read music to gain access to the ones that he has.[/quote]

Let me try this another way.

There's two chaffeur jobs available. One requires the ability to speak Chinese. One doesn't.
I don't speak Chinese, how many of those jobs can I apply for? One.
Alice does speak Chinese, how many can she apply for? Both.

Now, you can throw up all the pedantic excuses in the world here ("AH but what if Alice can't drive; just because she speaks Chinese doesn't mean she can drive" etc.) but the fact is, on this occassion, Alice has a required skill that I do not.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Eight

[mcgraham]

[quote]I think you'll find I already just said ear training was important[/quote]

I do apologise. That statement came across a lot more 'teacher-ish' than it was intended. It was more a generally directed comment rather than a specific 'warning' to you.

I've not got a coloured view of readers. I know plenty of good readers who are excellent improvisers. The thing is, they use their improvisational ability far more than their reading ability. So those readers who have a balance of both skills even seem to implicitly acknowledge a good ear is used more often than good reading skills. Note: I did not say they imply it's less valuable, just used less often in their musical pursuits. Again, horses for courses.

Mark

[Rich]

[quote name='rslaing' post='480298' date='May 5 2009, 07:39 PM']Hopefully I won't start off another war here, but SIGHT reading is [b]an essential skill[/b] too.[/quote][quote name='rslaing' post='480323' date='May 5 2009, 08:03 PM']it is [b]a major benefit [/b]to any musician to be able to read music..period.[/quote]

Surely there's a pretty big yawning gulf between the two..? I would never disagree for a second that reading is beneficial, but an essential skill? Essential in order to do what, exactly?

[Eight]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='480862' date='May 6 2009, 11:20 AM']The thing is, they use their improvisational ability far more than their reading ability. So those readers who have a balance of both skills even seem to implicitly acknowledge a good ear is used more often than good reading skills. Note: I did not say they imply it's less valuable, just used less often in their musical pursuits. Again, horses for courses.[/quote]
Yes, absolutely.

Whether reading is important or not, does not change the importance of good ear work. No reader should sensibly suggest that notation is a replacement for ears. It is actually a skill for a different task (although overlaps do occur as we've seen).

[Eight]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='480862' date='May 6 2009, 11:20 AM']I do apologise. That statement came across a lot more 'teacher-ish' than it was intended. It was more a generally directed comment rather than a specific 'warning' to you. [/quote]
Ah, no problem.

Just jumped on that because this thread is so crazy, its hard for one person to put an opinion forward without picking up the rest of the baggage. Got paranoid and assumed you were lumping me in with every other reader (not all of whom I agree with on all their points).

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Rich' post='480863' date='May 6 2009, 12:21 PM']Essential in order to do what, exactly?[/quote]


Belittle people on bass forums.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Rich' post='480863' date='May 6 2009, 12:21 PM']but an essential skill? Essential in order to do what, exactly?[/quote]


I suppose if you would like to teach music in schools it might be essential,
Or doing shows, its essential....
So it boils down to what direction you intend going as a Muso for it to be essential.


Garry

[Eight]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='480879' date='May 6 2009, 11:32 AM']Belittle people on bass forums.[/quote]
But you do that all the time without reading skills.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Eight' post='480906' date='May 6 2009, 12:50 PM']But you do that all the time without reading skills. [/quote]


I thought I was more insulting than belittling??

[Eight]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='480909' date='May 6 2009, 12:52 PM']I thought I was more insulting than belittling??[/quote]
Ok yes, that's a fair point.

So the opportunities for readers are to be belittling. Non readers can be insulting.

Sorted.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Eight' post='480856' date='May 6 2009, 12:18 PM']Leave the superior aspect out - I've never said anything along those lines.



Let me try this another way.

There's two chaffeur jobs available. One requires the ability to speak Chinese. One doesn't.
I don't speak Chinese, how many of those jobs can I apply for? One.
Alice does speak Chinese, how many can she apply for? Both.

Now, you can throw up all the pedantic excuses in the world here ("AH but what if Alice can't drive; just because she speaks Chinese doesn't mean she can drive" etc.) but the fact is, on this occassion, Alice has a required skill that I do not.[/quote]

No, sure, but you're not getting me.

here's what you said: "Except all things being equal - someone who can read has access to all of the opportunities reading brings, and [b]all of the opportunities reading isn't required for.[/b]"

There are 100 opportunities on offer. Fifty of them require reading. Another fifty of them don't require reading, but do, on the other hand, require expertise in operating ProTools (for instance).

So sure, I can't get the ones that require reading, but I can get the ones that require ProTools.

Conversely, rslaing (making the assumption that he isn't trained in ProTools) only has access to the ones that require reading, but not the ones that require ProTools expertise.

That's from my point of view, that operating ProTools to a high standard is as valuable a skill as reading music. You could argue that it isn't. But you see what I mean.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Eight' post='480914' date='May 6 2009, 12:53 PM']Ok yes, that's a fair point.

So the opportunities for readers are to be belittling. Non readers can be insulting.

Sorted. [/quote]


It works something like this:

Readers = arrogant
Non-readers = ignorant

[lowdown]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='480909' date='May 6 2009, 12:52 PM']I thought I was more insulting than belittling??[/quote]


Neither...
All this stuff is just Captain Mannering style aimless Grenade lobbing from the safety of your/
anyones own trench.

Garry

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Eight' post='480856' date='May 6 2009, 12:18 PM']Leave the superior aspect out - I've never said anything along those lines.



Let me try this another way.

There's two chaffeur jobs available. One requires the ability to speak Chinese. One doesn't.
I don't speak Chinese, how many of those jobs can I apply for? One.
Alice does speak Chinese, how many can she apply for? Both.

Now, you can throw up all the pedantic excuses in the world here ("AH but what if Alice can't drive; just because she speaks Chinese doesn't mean she can drive" etc.) but the fact is, on this occassion, Alice has a required skill that I do not.[/quote]



Yeah, but she's probably a commie.

[Rich]

[quote name='lowdown' post='480904' date='May 6 2009, 12:48 PM']I suppose if you would like to teach music in schools it might be essential,
Or doing shows, its essential....
So it boils down to what direction you intend going as a Muso for it to be essential.[/quote]
In those situations, probably yes. It's just the blanket nature of the original statement that I have trouble with.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480851' date='May 6 2009, 12:15 PM']Which I guess actually puts [i]him[/i] at a disadvantage, because whereas I'd happily learn to read music if I needed to, based on a lot of the stuff he says he probably wouldn't touch many of the skills I have with a bargepole because he thinks they're pointless and beneath him.[/quote]
OK, I'm genuinely intrigued. What are your skills, exactly? I don't mean that to come across as confrontational or patronising (that's the problem with forums -- you don't have any indication of tone of voice). It's just that I'm always interested in people's different ways of expressing and creating musical ideas, and how they communicate those ideas to other people. And I try to absorb as many methods as I can, so I can try to find ways to communicate musically with many different people.

(The only things I've never seen the point of are the sol-fa/solfège systems. Why use the syllables -- why not just sing numbers relating to the degrees of the scale? )

EDIT: Just figured it out. If you use sol-fa, you can have a choir of singers from all over the world, all using the same system without translation. So simple. D'oh!

Edited May 6, 2009 by BottomEndian

[Eight]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480917' date='May 6 2009, 12:55 PM']There are 100 opportunities on offer. Fifty of them require reading. Another fifty of them don't require reading, but do, on the other hand, require expertise in operating ProTools (for instance).

So sure, I can't get the ones that require reading, but I can get the ones that require ProTools.[/quote]

Fine. Yes, there are jobs for your skills - of course. I'm not suggesting your skills aren't impressive or valuable.

Assuming we both wanted to take that path - I would have to know ProTools. That would be a given for the role in the same way as you might be expected to have developed ears as a musician. But as a reader I *also* have access to the other 50 jobs.

You may not want those jobs - that's cool. My points have never been about *you* needing to read to do what you want to do (that's your call not mine); simply that reading gives me a bit of added flexibility and doesn't impact my ability to use my ears/ProTools.

[rslaing]

QUOTE (rslaing @ May 5 2009, 07:39 PM) *
Hopefully I won't start off another war here, but SIGHT reading is an essential skill too.
QUOTE (rslaing @ May 5 2009, 08:03 PM) *
it is a major benefit to any musician to be able to read music..period.[quote name='Rich' post='480863' date='May 6 2009, 12:21 PM']Surely there's a pretty big yawning gulf between the two..? I would never disagree for a second that reading is beneficial, but an essential skill? Essential in order to do what, exactly?[/quote]

My answer (and to save one or two of the contributors having to accuse me of arrogance blah blah blah etc, it is only my opinion) :- Being able to read music is essential in order to become an "all round" musician, capable of meeting any opportunities that arise in the music profession. A musician will certainly gain more work if he has more skill.

Why do you suggest there a yawning gulf between being able to read music and being able to sight read? The only difference is if you can sight read, you get the "job" done more quickly. Being able to sight read is only a matter of developing your reading skill to a higher level.

I gave my daughter a music lesson this morning, and she was amazed that I could sing (I have an awful voice) the part she had in front of her at the piano without having to play it, or having heard it before. That example is about using both attributes - I can read music, and because I can relate to the dots and hear the intervals that I see, I can transmit that (quite well, but not always perfectly) to someone very quickly. That is a primitive example for sure, but this ability that has taken years to develop is surely better than having to dig out the original version of the tune, prod about on an instrument and then have to try and memorise it? Imagine even the personal benefits, if a musician could read music, of being able to look at a piece of music and actually hear the chords that are written down on paper? And understand how and why they sound like that without having an instrument in their hands? It has to be a major benefit to their musicianship.

Can't remember who said it, but it went along the lines of the "the faintest ink is better than the best memory". Whenever I gig (which is getting less and less these days) I mostly don't use sheet music, but I always carry a decent library in case I get caught out with either a song I can't remember the changes for, or I have not played before. Thereby, hopefully doing a job that the non reader couldn't do?

And for those that seem to think I am dissing the non readers, I also spend more time playing without reading, than having to sit in front of a sheet of music. I also spend more practice time developing aural ability than reading about 90% of the time. But this does not detract from my opinion regarding reading skills. A musician should learn to read as a priority when starting out, and develop aural skill alongside, they will soon find out that aural musical ability will take up much more of their time as they develop and become as, if not more, important. But not for the reasons I have seen given in some of the responses in this thread.

But I still have the music reading ability if it is needed. It takes longer to perfect aural skill than it does learning to read music (although I don't think it is more difficult) so why don't non readers learn? I refer you back to my original theory that they can't be arsed (laziness) or they don't think there is a need. My previous pupils have actually ADMITTED these are the reasons so why should I change my mind?

I will continue to follow this thread out of interest but I can't really spend any more time trying to justify my beliefs in writing. If anyone can convince me that it is not important to have both reading and aural skills, and tell me why aural skill is all that is needed, that would be great. But I really can't see it happening.

And BTW maxrossell, regarding your post insinuating I think I am superior to anyone (and your other personal insults), I certainly know I am not, as do a number of other people on this forum that know me. I just happen to feel very strongly about people not just having instrumental skills etc, but the ability to have a greater understanding of music which can add to their talents. Being able to read music gives you that understanding/comprehension, and I'm sorry, but unless you can read music, I don't think you would know what I meant.

Also, to answer your personal criticism "Which I guess actually puts him at a disadvantage, because whereas I'd happily learn to read music if I needed to, based on a lot of the stuff he says he probably wouldn't touch many of the skills I have with a bargepole because he thinks they're pointless and beneath him."

I assure you that you will be "better" at a lot of things in life than I am. But with 40 years experience, the odds are that I could be right about the odd thing?

Edited May 6, 2009 by rslaing

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='rslaing' post='480943' date='May 6 2009, 01:17 PM']QUOTE (rslaing @ May 5 2009, 07:39 PM) *
Hopefully I won't start off another war here, but SIGHT reading is an essential skill too.
QUOTE (rslaing @ May 5 2009, 08:03 PM) *
it is a major benefit to any musician to be able to read music..period.

My answer (and to save one or two of the contributors having to accuse me of arrogance blah blah blah etc, it is only my opinion) :- Being able to read music is essential in order to become an "all round" musician, capable of meeting any opportunities that arise in the music profession. A musician will certainly gain more work if he has more skill.

Why do you suggest there a yawning gulf between being able to read music and being able to sight read? The only difference is if you can sight read, you get the "job" done more quickly. Being able to sight read is only a matter of developing your reading skill to a higher level.

I gave my daughter a music lesson this morning, and she was amazed that I could sing (I have an awful voice) the part she had in front of her at the piano without having to play it, or having heard it before. That example is about using both attributes - I can read music, and because I can relate to the dots and hear the intervals that I see, I can transmit that (quite well, but not always perfectly) to someone very quickly. That is a primitive example for sure, but this ability that has taken years to develop is surely better than having to dig out the original version of the tune, prod about on an instrument and then have to try and memorise it? Imagine even the personal benefits, if a musician could read music, of being able to look at a piece of music and actually hear the chords that are written down on paper? And understand how and why they sound like that without having an instrument in their hands? It has to be a major benefit to their musicianship.

Can't remember who said it, but it went along the lines of the "the faintest ink is better than the best memory". Whenever I gig (which is getting less and less these days) I mostly don't use sheet music, but I always carry a decent library in case I get caught out with either a song I can't remember the changes for, or I have not played before. Thereby, hopefully doing a job that the non reader couldn't do?

And for those that seem to think I am dissing the non readers, I also spend more time playing without reading, than having to sit in front of a sheet of music. I also spend more practice time developing aural ability than reading about 90% of the time. But this does not detract from my opinion regarding reading skills. A musician should learn to read as a priority when starting out, and develop aural skill alongside, they will soon find out that aural musical ability will take up much more of their time as they develop and become as, if not more, important. But not for the reasons I have seen given in some of the responses in this thread.

But I still have the music reading ability if it is needed. It takes longer to perfect aural skill than it does learning to read music (although I don't think it is more difficult) so why don't non readers learn? I refer you back to my original theory that they can't be arsed (laziness) or they don't think there is a need. My previous pupils have actually ADMITTED these are the reasons so why should I change my mind?

I will continue to follow this thread out of interest but I can't really spend any more time trying to justify my beliefs in writing. If anyone can convince me that it is not important to have both reading and aural skills, and tell me why aural skill is all that is needed, that would be great. But I really can't see it happening.

And BTW maxrossell, regarding your post insinuating I think I am superior to anyone (and your other personal insults), I certainly know I am not, as do a number of other people on this forum that know me. I just happen to feel very strongly about people not just having instrumental skills etc, but the ability to have a greater understanding of music which can add to their talents. Being able to read music gives you that undersanding/comprehension, and I'm sorry, but unless you can read music, I don't think you would know what I meant.

Also, to answer your personal criticism "Which I guess actually puts him at a disadvantage, because whereas I'd happily learn to read music if I needed to, based on a lot of the stuff he says he probably wouldn't touch many of the skills I have with a bargepole because he thinks they're pointless and beneath him."

I assure you that you will be "better" at a lot of things in life than I am. But with 40 years experience, the odds are that I could be right about the odd thing?[/quote]


More importantly rslaing, did you like my band???

[rslaing]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='480951' date='May 6 2009, 01:22 PM']More importantly rslaing, did you like my band???[/quote]

I did. But that is only more important to you.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='rslaing' post='480954' date='May 6 2009, 01:24 PM']I did. But that is only more important to you. [/quote]


ermm, I don't think so!

What about all my fans on BassChat?

[rslaing]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='480957' date='May 6 2009, 01:25 PM']ermm, I don't think so!

What about all my fans on BassChat?[/quote]

I don't know if they like your band or not.

But I am certainly your number 1 fan for your contributions on here (when you are not trying be serious that is)