Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[maxrossell]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='480932' date='May 6 2009, 01:05 PM']OK, I'm genuinely intrigued. What are your skills, exactly? I don't mean that to come across as confrontational or patronising (that's the problem with forums -- you don't have any indication of tone of voice). It's just that I'm always interested in people's different ways of expressing and creating musical ideas, and how they communicate those ideas to other people. And I try to absorb as many methods as I can, so I can try to find ways to communicate musically with many different people.

(The only things I've never seen the point of are the sol-fa/solfège systems. Why use the syllables -- why not just sing numbers relating to the degrees of the scale? )

EDIT: Just figured it out. If you use sol-fa, you can have a choir of singers from all over the world, all using the same system without translation. So simple. D'oh![/quote]

Wow. Er. Okay.

My "skill" skills are mainly technical, as in computer stuff, studio stuff, sound stuff, all that jazz. For instance if you wanted me to produce, mix and master your album, I could, on the majority of industry standard formats.

On the other hand, in terms of formal musical skills, I don't have anything that would get me into a conservatory or anything. I have a basic understanding of music theory. What I do have is fifteen years of experience of working in a really broad variety of musical situations, which has given me some of my key "abstract" skills, which are quick adaptability, the ability to effectively teach, the ability to conduct and lead bands, pretty good relative pitch, a basic level of performance on dozens of instruments and a reasonably high level on others, and a whole bunch of other crap that I'd sound even more arsey and arrogant if I tried to put names to them.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='480943' date='May 6 2009, 01:17 PM']And BTW maxrossell, regarding your post insinuating I think I am superior to anyone (and your other personal insults), I certainly know I am not, as do a number of other people on this forum that know me.[/quote]

Okay, well, just for future reference, that's how it comes very strongly across.

[quote]I just happen to feel very strongly about people not just having instrumental skills etc, but the ability to have a greater understanding of music which can add to their talents. Being able to read music gives you that understanding/comprehension, and I'm sorry, but unless you can read music, I don't think you would know what I meant.[/quote]

Try me. Not everyone who doesn't read music is an unimaginative moron.

[quote]Also, to answer your personal criticism "Which I guess actually puts him at a disadvantage, because whereas I'd happily learn to read music if I needed to, based on a lot of the stuff he says he probably wouldn't touch many of the skills I have with a bargepole because he thinks they're pointless and beneath him."

I assure you that you will be "better" at a lot of things in life than I am. But with 40 years experience, the odds are that I could be right about the odd thing?[/quote]

I'm sure you're right about many things. However, again for future reference, the best way to prove that you're right is not to dismiss or belittle those that you believe are wrong.

Edited May 6, 2009 by maxrossell

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480966' date='May 6 2009, 01:33 PM']Wow. Er. Okay.[/quote]
Yeah, sorry. I do that to people.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480966' date='May 6 2009, 01:33 PM']My "skill" skills are mainly technical, as in computer stuff, studio stuff, sound stuff, all that jazz. For instance if you wanted me to produce, mix and master your album, I could, on the majority of industry standard formats.[/quote]
Useful skills indeed. Things I've always tried to get my head around (to the extent of doing an HND in Music Production), but I always end up realising it's just not in me. I'm a musician, not a technician. I tend to hear the notes, not the sound.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480966' date='May 6 2009, 01:33 PM']On the other hand, in terms of formal musical skills, I don't have anything that would get me into a conservatory or anything. I have a basic understanding of music theory. What I do have is fifteen years of experience of working in a really broad variety of musical situations, which has given me some of my key "abstract" skills, which are quick adaptability, [b]the ability to effectively teach, the ability to conduct and lead bands[/b], pretty good relative pitch, a basic level of performance on dozens of instruments and a reasonably high level on others, and a whole bunch of other crap that I'd sound even more arsey and arrogant if I tried to put names to them.[/quote]
[i]That's[/i] what I'm interested in (in bold). You've mentioned conducting an ensemble in a performance of your own music, without having notated the music in the traditional way. So how did you communicate to the performers exactly what it was you wanted them to do? Graphic score? Sing a line to them and get them to play it back? Mock up the piece in Cubase or something, and give them the recording to figure it out from?

I do genuinely find this sort of thing interesting. I learned to read music when I started playing the piano at 6. I used to do a lot of choral singing, and I've sight-sung my way through a good few choral concerts. I can communicate music incredibly effectively with people who can read standard notation, but I always hit a bit of a block when they can't. Anything that can help me with that is a bonus!

[maxrossell]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='481024' date='May 6 2009, 02:22 PM'][i]That's[/i] what I'm interested in (in bold). You've mentioned conducting an ensemble in a performance of your own music, without having notated the music in the traditional way. So how did you communicate to the performers exactly what it was you wanted them to do? Graphic score? Sing a line to them and get them to play it back? Mock up the piece in Cubase or something, and give them the recording to figure it out from?[/quote]

Combination of everything really.

Basically when I score, I do it with a computer and a notepad. I usually have some sort of midi setup with a selection of instruments, from orchestral to modern, that I can use to try lines, melodies, rhythms, harmonies, all that kind of stuff. Or sometimes I'll just record a load of guitar lines and go from there. I'll cut a rough demo, either of the whole thing, or a series of sketches, and from that I'll make notes of a combination of plain English and letters and so on (or sometimes tab for chords, or sometimes sketches of drum patterns, or what have you), and this is what I'll bring to the orchestra or to the band or to whoever I'm working with. If I'm in a hurry to get a performance together I'll cut the whole demo so they can hear it and I'll give them clear notes explaining their parts in the piece. If it's more about the collaboration with the orchestra I'll try to keep it as open and spontaneous as possible, only bring sketched recordings in and make decisions and changes when we're actually in a rehearsal situation, going from the orchestra's reactions. Ideally I prefer to do it that way so it's a proper collaboration, not just me telling people what to play and how to play it.

It's a bit of an esoteric mish-mash, but most of the time I'm not dealing with Rachmaninov-level stuff and I've rarely worked with more than fifteen people at once.

[mcgraham]

It's very easy to get defensive about what other skills a given musician may have outside of reading/listening skills. Of course, one may develop skills outside of their normal skillbase when needs must, but until such a situation arises, why use would you work on something you don't yet need or will develop a need for with your free time if you're already using your free time to work on something you do need, i.e. working on other areas that are more pressing? I wish to draw a distinction here between those who are practicing what is useful to them with the free time they have, and those who rarely practice with diligence and simply assert that they don't need to learn to read or <insert skill here>, i.e. they are happy with where they are at. I would hardly call the former 'lazy', they are merely prioritizing. I'd say that is what Max has (wisely) done. And I wouldn't attack the latter party's position either, but I certainly wouldn't credit them with a strong reason for not learning a new skill.

Mark

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481033' date='May 6 2009, 02:34 PM']Combination of everything really.

Basically when I score, I do it with a computer and a notepad. I usually have some sort of midi setup with a selection of instruments, from orchestral to modern, that I can use to try lines, melodies, rhythms, harmonies, all that kind of stuff. Or sometimes I'll just record a load of guitar lines and go from there. I'll cut a rough demo, either of the whole thing, or a series of sketches, and from that I'll make notes of a combination of plain English and letters and so on (or sometimes tab for chords, or sometimes sketches of drum patterns, or what have you), and this is what I'll bring to the orchestra or to the band or to whoever I'm working with. If I'm in a hurry to get a performance together I'll cut the whole demo so they can hear it and I'll give them clear notes explaining their parts in the piece. If it's more about the collaboration with the orchestra I'll try to keep it as open and spontaneous as possible, only bring sketched recordings in and make decisions and changes when we're actually in a rehearsal situation, going from the orchestra's reactions. Ideally I prefer to do it that way so it's a proper collaboration, not just me telling people what to play and how to play it.

It's a bit of an esoteric mish-mash, but most of the time I'm not dealing with Rachmaninov-level stuff and I've rarely worked with more than fifteen people at once.[/quote]
Cool. Thanks for that. Some stuff to try out in future there.

Of course, if I was on the receiving end of your techniques (steady...), I'd probably just scribble everything down on manuscript as we went along. Horses for courses. Meat/poison. Etc.

[Rich]

[quote name='rslaing' post='480943' date='May 6 2009, 01:17 PM']Why do you suggest there a yawning gulf between being able to read music and being able to sight read?[/quote]
Read [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33949&view=findpost&p=480863"]my post[/url] again, and have a good look at the [b]bold[/b] bits. What I was suggesting is that there is a yawning gulf between something that is [i]of benefit[/i] and something that is [i]essential[/i].

And please, listen to what Max says. You may not think you are superior, but that really is how you're coming across at times.

[rslaing]

[quote name='Rich' post='481142' date='May 6 2009, 04:41 PM']Read [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33949&view=findpost&p=480863"]my post[/url] again, and have a good look at the [b]bold[/b] bits. What I was suggesting is that there is a yawning gulf between something that is [i]of benefit[/i] and something that is [i]essential[/i].

And please, listen to what Max says. You may not think you are superior, but that really is how you're coming across at times.[/quote]

Please just moderate - don't start getting personal. There is nothing in the "rules" that state anyone can't offer their own thoughts on a subject. And really, moderators shouldn't opinionate on a thread they are moderating, the words bias and influence comes to mind.

There isn't a gulf between something being of benefit and something being essential. It is a benefit to any musician to be able to read music. It is essential for a musician who wants to at the top of his trade and in demand to be able to sight read.

If you want to be critical of my posts, please stick to the topic and the content of my text. If you want to get personal (in other words levy criticism at me personally) - keep it to yourself. Thanks

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='481184' date='May 6 2009, 05:04 PM']Please just moderate - don't start getting personal. There is nothing in the "rules" that state anyone can't offer their own thoughts on a subject. And really, moderators shouldn't opinionate on a thread they are moderating, the words bias and influence comes to mind.[/quote]

With respect, it's not for you to decide the role of the moderators on Basschat. As mentioned a number of times earlier - if you wish to discuss this further, please do so via PM with any of us.

That's all for this thread, folks. It was interesting in parts but it's destined to go around in circles forever. Thanks to all who participated.