Bilbo Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Nope, you're right, you don't need it. All you actually need is food, water and shelter. You can gig forever without it. Brillo pads. But what if you had it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Errrr.. I dunno. I could dep in wedding bands, or play faceless sessions for people I don't know. Instead I'm doomed to write, record and gig all over the world with an ever-widening range of respected musicians I know and admire. I'm wasting my life, aren't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='wateroftyne' post='374856' date='Jan 9 2009, 10:16 AM']I'm wasting my life, aren't I?[/quote] Only you can answer that See, I can read and I gig all over East Anglia with musicians that are generally as poorly paid as I am. Truth is, I haven't done a proper reading gig in 4 years. It's not the gigs thing, WoT, its the learnin'. I go on the net and there are hundreds of thousands of transcriptions of great music that provide so much information that we can all use to make ourselves more informed, creative, expert etc. If you can read, you can access it and use it quickly. If you can't, you can't. Its just a shame, that's all. Also, musicians that read can communicate their ideas to other musicians that read much more quickly so you can more quickly get on with the business of making a noise. And its actually not that hard to do. Edited January 9, 2009 by bilbo230763 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='wateroftyne' post='374856' date='Jan 9 2009, 10:16 AM']or play faceless sessions for people I don't know.[/quote] And get cheques from faceless people, that can generate performance [ PPL ] Royalties in the future.... Nothing to lose. I do both, [ along with many others ] And it aint done me any harm. Garry Edited January 9, 2009 by lowdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='bilbo230763' post='374862' date='Jan 9 2009, 10:22 AM']Only you can answer that See, I can read and I gig all over East Anglia with musicians that are generally as poorly paid as I am. Truth is, I haven't done a proper reading gig in 4 years. It's not the gigs thing, WoT, its the learnin'. I go on the net and there are hundreds of thousands of transcriptions of great music that provide so much information that we can all use to make ourselves more informed, creative, expert etc. If you can read, you can access it and use it quickly. If you can't, you can't. Its just a shame, that's all. Also, musicians that read can communicate their ideas to other musicians that read much more quickly so you can more quickly get on with the business of making a noise. And its actually not that hard to do.[/quote] I hear you, Bilbo, and I appreciate what you're trying to say. But it boils down to that same old argument. While it's undoubtely of benefit to many, many people - and I don't discourage anyone who wants to do it - some people are truckin' quite nicely along without it. That's just how it is. As it happens, I've had a little bit of free time in the evenings recently (a rare occurrence), and I've spent quite a bit of it with headphones on, playing along with all sorts of stuff which has puzzled me in the past. Very entertaining and very enlightening. I daresay I learned more then than I would reading dots on t'internets. Edited January 9, 2009 by wateroftyne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnSlade07 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 At the age of 40 I'm struggling to improve my woeful reading "skills" and it's a big regret that I didn't learn properly years ago. It's such a block when I look at a James Jamerson line for instance and struggle to work out all the syncopated parts, or can't sight read a fairly simple walking line without a struggle. Being able to read confidently would open up a lot of possibilites for me musically on a personal level, although it wouldn't get me more gigs etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I posted a few transcriptions recently and have just noticed that they have been downloaded 146 times by users of this forum. That's great because that was why I posted them. But, pertinent to this discussion, that's 146 people who have access to something many others here have not. I think that's a shame, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthewalrus Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='JohnSlade07' post='375314' date='Jan 9 2009, 04:08 PM']At the age of 40 I'm struggling to improve my woeful reading "skills" and it's a big regret that I didn't learn properly years ago. It's such a block when I look at a James Jamerson line for instance and struggle to work out all the syncopated parts, or can't sight read a fairly simple walking line without a struggle. Being able to read confidently would open up a lot of possibilites for me musically on a personal level, although it wouldn't get me more gigs etc[/quote] I'm trying to improve my own woeful sightreading skills at the age of 45. Wish I'd worked harder at it over the last 23 years as it would have opened up a lot of really good playing opportunities earlier on in life. I'm with Bilbo on this one..... Cheers, iamthewalrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 definitely a bit of both! but...a reader will always, always develop their reading skill before their hearing! to me reading music is a great skill for your armory but does not develop your skill for listening to music! andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirky Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 (edited) I'm a good reader (grade 8 theory), with a good feel, but average technical ability thus far. My approach to learning a new song is: 1) Listen to the record and work it out by ear. 2) If I'm stuck, try to get hold of a transcription (proper notation). 3) If that's not available, have a look on youtube (unbelievably useful re fingering problems IMO) 4) An absolute last resort, find tabs. Its a last resort, and rarely required, but has proved useful a couple of times. A good ear is essential even if you are a good reader. Being able to read opens up all sorts of learning opportunities. Martin Edited January 11, 2009 by Kirky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 My twopenth for what it's worth! I have spent many years playing in hard rock bands (classic rock if you will) and have been lucky to play with several very good players in that particular idiom, in particular guitarists The best guitar players around generally couldn’t read a note! That is not to say that they didn’t have a decent working knowledge of theory, but couldn’t read However, there was one guy who had been to music college, good singer, could play several instruments to a high standard (he was also a session horn player) and was very clever at arranging songs but was a very uninspiring lead guitar player with no real fire or aggression and it was generally acknowledged that there were a few other guys out there who could play rings round him! Years later of course, no one from that scene ever had more than pretty minor success but guess who is the only one to have made a fortune out of music (writing music for computer games) Yep, the guy who went to school and could read….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballie Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Ideally you should be able to do both. The ear backs up what your eyes see on the page, so you know intervallically how it'll sound. The wider your skills set, the more opportunities you will be able to take! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemuel Beam Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Learning to read will undoubtedly improve your "playing by ear" skills.. if you can "see, hear, understand, play", then you can better "hear, understand, play".. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB26354 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 This comes up in every music-related forum I have visited. How far would most of us get in everyday life without being able to speak, understand, read and write English (or whatever your chosen language is)? Sure there are some who never learn properly (or people who emigrate and can't/won't learn the native language), but they miss out on massive chunks of society. Why should music be any different? If you make music and don't understand how it works then you miss out massively. A lot of indigenous music isn't written down and doesn't need to be, and that is fine. Standard notation is the de facto standard for writing out music for other people to play (often without rehearsal). I don't think that Leland Sklar, Nathan East, Marcus Miller, Will Lee, Pino Palladino, Freddie Washington, JJ Burnel, David Hungate, Anthony Jackson, Tony Levin, James Jamerson or Chuck Rainey suffer/suffered from being able to read music! You may totally dislike classical music, but just about every musician and composer there has ever been was a reader. They have far greater technical and emotional challenges than we do playing bass, to the point that they don't really have a choice if they want to make the music happen. Once they get it under their fingers then they use their ears, experience and heart to turn it into real music (just like every other musician). I started playing by ear, had a good ear, then decided to teach myself music theory from a book. I went from there into understanding "jazz" harmony and arranging. I still love playing along with records or jamming, and as I get older appreciate all forms of music. It all reinforces itself - a good ear puts sounds to what you see on the page, and the theory formalises and recognises the patterns that occur in music (as well as nature). I blame the lack of decent music education in this country and the woeful standard of a lot of private teachers (of all instruments). Learning to read is not difficult, it just takes a bit of practice and dedication. The reward is the last 500+ years of music history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='XB26354' post='429748' date='Mar 9 2009, 08:04 PM']This comes up in every music-related forum I have visited. How far would most of us get in everyday life without being able to speak, understand, read and write English (or whatever your chosen language is)? Sure there are some who never learn properly (or people who emigrate and can't/won't learn the native language), but they miss out on massive chunks of society. Why should music be any different? If you make music and don't understand how it works then you miss out massively. A lot of indigenous music isn't written down and doesn't need to be, and that is fine. Standard notation is the de facto standard for writing out music for other people to play (often without rehearsal). I don't think that Leland Sklar, Nathan East, Marcus Miller, Will Lee, Pino Palladino, Freddie Washington, JJ Burnel, David Hungate, Anthony Jackson, Tony Levin, James Jamerson or Chuck Rainey suffer/suffered from being able to read music! You may totally dislike classical music, but just about every musician and composer there has ever been was a reader. They have far greater technical and emotional challenges than we do playing bass, to the point that they don't really have a choice if they want to make the music happen. Once they get it under their fingers then they use their ears, experience and heart to turn it into real music (just like every other musician). I started playing by ear, had a good ear, then decided to teach myself music theory from a book. I went from there into understanding "jazz" harmony and arranging. I still love playing along with records or jamming, and as I get older appreciate all forms of music. It all reinforces itself - a good ear puts sounds to what you see on the page, and the theory formalises and recognises the patterns that occur in music (as well as nature). I blame the lack of decent music education in this country and the woeful standard of a lot of private teachers (of all instruments). Learning to read is not difficult, it just takes a bit of practice and dedication. The reward is the last 500+ years of music history.[/quote] Hi, great post. I love classical music and strongly believe that a grounding in classical music (particularly piano due to polyphony elements) hugely develops the ability to play by ear anyway as well as developing fundamentals such as harmony, chords , intervals, arpeggios, etc. Regards AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='peteb' post='378523' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:32 AM']My twopenth for what it's worth! I have spent many years playing in hard rock bands (classic rock if you will) and have been lucky to play with several very good players in that particular idiom, in particular guitarists The best guitar players around generally couldn’t read a note! That is not to say that they didn’t have a decent working knowledge of theory, but couldn’t read However, there was one guy who had been to music college, good singer, could play several instruments to a high standard (he was also a session horn player) and was very clever at arranging songs but was a very uninspiring lead guitar player with no real fire or aggression and it was generally acknowledged that there were a few other guys out there who could play rings round him! Years later of course, no one from that scene ever had more than pretty minor success but guess who is the only one to have made a fortune out of music (writing music for computer games) Yep, the guy who went to school and could read…..[/quote] Interesting point - I have now seen quite a few bass players (some of whom have been playing a really long time) whom are technically very good, but there is absolutely NO "feeling" to their playing and they have poor phrasing. To me, it's ALL about phrasing - it is intrinsically linked with "feel" i.e. groove. But there is a dichotomy in that it can be difficult to replicate "groove" from notation.... P.S. I loved the music from the old Dizzy games on Amstrad CPC 464. A lot of these guys have theory backgrounds - reading helps with composition. Regards AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='AM1' post='429830' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:07 PM']Interesting point - I have now seen quite a few bass players (some of whom have been playing a really long time) whom are technically very good, but there is absolutely NO "feeling" to their playing and they have poor phrasing. To me, it's ALL about phrasing - it is intrinsically linked with "feel" i.e. groove. But there is a dichotomy in that it can be difficult to replicate "groove" from notation....[/quote] Agreed but have you ever listened to a classical piece and read the score alongside it? A player could NOT play the piece from dots alone unless s/he had a thorough grounding in the genre and knew, in a broad brush sense, what it is supposed to sound like. So, if a bass player is reading a funk line, he needs to know what 'funk' sounds like to make the music happen. Its no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Having a good ear is essential (just listen to Beethoven - utter rubbish!), but being able to read/write music is an immensely valuable skill. Still, I don't see why everyone is so down on tabs?! Okay, so the Internet is full of rubbish tabs, but if I spent the next few hours uploading dodgy sheet music, would you all decide that's a bad means of writing down music? Standard notation is ideal for keyboards or wind instruments or whatever, but tabs were designed for stringed instruments, and they seem to do the job fine. Apologies if I've made that argument before and someone's carefully explained to me why I'm wrong (I vaguely remember this happening, but can't recall what the flaw in my argument was, so I'm assuming it never actually happened until someone tells me again...). [quote name='AM1' post='429830' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:07 PM']P.S. I loved the music from the old Dizzy games on Amstrad CPC 464. A lot of these guys have theory backgrounds - reading helps with composition.[/quote] Dizzy is awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='BOD2' post='350514' date='Dec 10 2008, 11:27 AM']To answer the original post.... I started playing guitar well over 20 years ago. There was no tab and no guitar music written down other than paino music with "equivalent chords" written down and pulled from a chord dictionary (and usually the wrong chord inversions). I learned to play by ear entirely. I started playing bass seriously about 7/8 years ago and just carried that learning technique over. I work out an existing bassline purely by ear, picking out notes by listening and using the exprience I've gained over the years to figure out where things should be played on the neck to sound best. I don't generally think of the note names. I know where the notes are on the fretboard but just don't think of them generally, other than being aware of playing notes around, say "A" or "D" in a particular song (I know that I'll be playing notes from a scale but again I'm playing by "feel" rather than note names). For the music I've played (mostly rock/pop covers) I've found that method works for me with no limitations, as I doubt I would be able to find the basslines in any reliable written format anyway. I'm aware of music notation, and can almost understand most of it but I would not be able to sight read at all. I'm not advocating this approach at all - just answering the question.[/quote] I think I am a carbon copy of you. But I really do wish I had learned to read and write music. I don't have time now. I don't really feel I need to either, I suppose, I have good ears and never had a problem picking quite complex things up very quickly. However, getting complex ideas noted down on paper would be so much more efficient for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 In my experience a lot of sheet music is inaccurate and can't be trusted, so my order of preference is a good ear first closely followed by reading the dots. A Donald Fagin story: When Steely Dan decided to go back on the road and tour again after 20 years, they brought the sheet music to their songs to help them get up to speed. They found that the music contained so many mistakes that they threw the books away and had to go back and relearn the numbers from the records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='430242' date='Mar 10 2009, 11:09 AM']Still, I don't see why everyone is so down on tabs?! Okay, so the Internet is full of rubbish tabs, but if I spent the next few hours uploading dodgy sheet music, would you all decide that's a bad means of writing down music? Standard notation is ideal for keyboards or wind instruments or whatever, but tabs were designed for stringed instruments, and they seem to do the job fine.[/quote] Tabs are fine for learning stuff at home... But in the real world out on a gig are limited in the amount of style info they give out. Also not easy on the eye for quick digestion, and not to mention the amount of pages and paper needed for one song. As someone else mentioned, when note reading you still need to know the various styles and whatever to make the dots sound musical. [ do i play swing or straight 8's?] Your ears also come into play when sight reading because you need to phrase with the other musos in the band or orchestra, otherwise it will sound very loose. I still think the old argument about sight readers having no lugs or feel is rubbish, Well at least in the circles i move in. Much easier on a gig rehearsal session show or whatever, getting things done, rather than everyone huddled around a CD or Mp3 player trying to learn material. Another system that has not been mentioned here is the Nashville number system. Something to be considered. [url="http://coba.belmont.edu/fac/tappant/3370nashvillenumber.htm"]http://coba.belmont.edu/fac/tappant/3370nashvillenumber.htm[/url] Garry Edited March 10, 2009 by lowdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='chris_b' post='430414' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:59 PM']They found that the music contained so many mistakes that they threw the books away and had to go back and relearn the numbers from the records.[/quote] The trouble is that, in the industry, a lot of these books are written by people who know piano and not necessarily people who know the full range of instruments and techniques used to execute them. If you look at books like Samuel Adler's 'Orchestration', they talk about all of the instruments and how to write for them (ranges, styles, techniques etc). So, when someone like John Williams writes for an orchestra, he is expected to cover all bases before any musicians get anywhere near the charts. The books you get for Popular Music are often done by piano players who are not actually that interesetd in the music they are transcribing, are on small budgets and short deadlines. So they kind of 'cobble' stuff together on until the product is 'good enough' and then let it out. They are not professional standard (i.e. proper arrangements) but 'have a go around the piano in the parlour' kind of thing. In my experience, good transcriptions are like gold dust. They are shared through good intentions mostly with a health warning (my version of etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='chris_b' post='430414' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:59 PM']In my experience a lot of sheet music is inaccurate and can't be trusted, so my order of preference is a good ear first closely followed by reading the dots. A Donald Fagin story: When Steely Dan decided to go back on the road and tour again after 20 years, they brought the sheet music to their songs to help them get up to speed. They found that the music contained so many mistakes that they threw the books away and had to go back and relearn the numbers from the records.[/quote] There is a big difference between shop sheet music, and a properly arranged score or Bass chart. I cant not imagine why Steely Dan would not have got a pro arranger to write out there material... Other than dosh! Garry Edited March 10, 2009 by lowdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='430458' date='Mar 10 2009, 01:29 PM']If you look at books like Samuel Adler's 'Orchestration', they talk about all of the instruments and how to write for them (ranges, styles, techniques etc). So, when someone like John Williams writes for an orchestra, he is expected to cover all bases before any musicians get anywhere near the charts.[/quote] Hey Bilbo, funny you should mention that.. I just got the Samual Adler stuff a few days ago - good stuff [ with audio eg's ] Garry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='lowdown' post='430452' date='Mar 10 2009, 01:25 PM']Tabs are fine for learning stuff at home... But in the real world out on a gig are limited in the amount of style info they give out. Also not easy on the eye for quick digestion, and not to mention the amount of pages and paper needed for one song. As someone else mentioned, when note reading you still need to know the various styles and whatever to make the dots sound musical. [ do i play swing or straight 8's?] Your ears also come into play when sight reading because you need to phrase with the other musos in the band or orchestra, otherwise it will sound very loose. I still think the old argument about sight readers having no lugs or feel is rubbish, Well at least in the circles i move in. Much easier on a gig rehearsal session show or whatever, getting things done, rather than everyone huddled around a CD or Mp3 player trying to learn material. Another system that has not been mentioned here is the Nashville number system. Something to be considered. [url="http://coba.belmont.edu/fac/tappant/3370nashvillenumber.htm"]http://coba.belmont.edu/fac/tappant/3370nashvillenumber.htm[/url] Garry[/quote] Sorry but I don't feel that answers my question? Specifically what is the advantage of staff notation over tablature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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