Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[endorka]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='430523' date='Mar 10 2009, 02:21 PM']Sorry but I don't feel that answers my question? Specifically what is the advantage of staff notation over tablature?[/quote]

Off the top of my head, things notation offers as standard that tab does not;

- rhythm
- dynamics
- articulation
- direct musical pitch information
- it can be used by players of other instruments, not just the instrument it was written for.

...I am sure there are many others.

With a part written in notation, and some prior knowledge of how the musical genre sounds, it is possible to credibly recreate the musical part without having to hear it beforehand. This is not the case with tab.

Jennifer

[lowdown]

[quote name='endorka' post='430538' date='Mar 10 2009, 02:35 PM']Off the top of my head, things notation offers as standard that tab does not;

- rhythm
- dynamics
- articulation
- direct musical pitch information
- it can be used by players of other instruments, not just the instrument it was written for.

...I am sure there are many others.

With a part written in notation, and some prior knowledge of how the musical genre sounds, it is possible to credibly recreate the musical part without having to hear it beforehand. This is not the case with tab.

Jennifer[/quote]


Well put and answered.

Garry

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='endorka' post='430538' date='Mar 10 2009, 02:35 PM']Off the top of my head, things notation offers as standard that tab does not;

- rhythm
- dynamics
- articulation
- direct musical pitch information
- it can be used by players of other instruments, not just the instrument it was written for.

...I am sure there are many others.

With a part written in notation, and some prior knowledge of how the musical genre sounds, it is possible to credibly recreate the musical part without having to hear it beforehand. This is not the case with tab.

Jennifer[/quote]

Thank you for that answer! However, I think that most of those objections are only applicable to BAD tabs that you can find all over the Internet. The tabs I use (I use tabs as well as staff notation) certainly indicate rhythm and dynamics, for a start. As far as I'm aware, articulation is indicated by little symbols above/below the note, which is surely just as easy to write on tabs as it is on notation.
As I see it, the problem is that there are lots of dreadful tabs out there giving the good ones a bad name. If tabs are used to their full potential, they can combine everything that is useful about notation with the added benefit of being specifically intended for our instrument. In contrast, I've never seen notation that tells me which fret to play on which string.

[endorka]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='430582' date='Mar 10 2009, 03:09 PM']Thank you for that answer! However, I think that most of those objections are only applicable to BAD tabs that you can find all over the Internet. The tabs I use (I use tabs as well as staff notation) certainly indicate rhythm and dynamics, for a start. As far as I'm aware, articulation is indicated by little symbols above/below the note, which is surely just as easy to write on tabs as it is on notation.[/quote]

I'm sure all the above is possible - I've seen a few tabs in the past with some indication of rhythm bolted on, but they have used similar syntax to the language used to describe rhythm in notation. In my opinion, if you're going to these lengths to make tab emulate notation, you might as well take it the final step and use notation - it really isn't much further.

[quote]As I see it, the problem is that there are lots of dreadful tabs out there giving the good ones a bad name.[/quote]

I think this is a red herring; there are good and bad tabs, just as there are good and bad transcriptions in notation.

[quote]If tabs are used to their full potential, they can combine everything that is useful about notation with the added benefit of being specifically intended for our instrument. In contrast, I've never seen notation that tells me which fret to play on which string.[/quote]

I would never advocate that everyone must use one system or another, if something works for your purposes then as far as I'm concerned that's great and it's the end of the story. In my opinion, a system being specific to a given instrument is a downside, for you it is not. For example, on several recents gigs I've been able to play parts from a string quartet written for a cello on my double bass - both are written in bass clef, although in terms of fingering they are very different instruments, the cello is tuned in fifths, the bass in fourths. Tab, (if it made sense at all on a fretless instrument) would not be cross compatible at all. And this is before we get into even more distant territory, such as wind instruments and piano. I once played a trombone part in a big band on a six string bass (!).

I remain unconvinced about the requirement of a notation to spell out exact fingerings for every note - with experience, the musician can usually do this for themselves, and indeed fingerings may vary between musicians due to things such as instrument scale length, altered tunings, additional strings, and hand size. However, in notation, the requirement for a note to be played in a specific placed on a certain string can be indicated; one way of doing this is by writing "sul D", which means "the stated note should be played on the D string".

Jennifer

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='endorka' post='430615' date='Mar 10 2009, 03:40 PM']I would never advocate that everyone must use one system or another, if something works for your purposes then as far as I'm concerned that's great and it's the end of the story. In my opinion, a system being specific to a given instrument is a downside, for you it is not. For example, on several recents gigs I've been able to play parts from a string quartet written for a cello on my double bass - both are written in bass clef, although in terms of fingering they are very different instruments, the cello is tuned in fifths, the bass in fourths. Tab, (if it made sense at all on a fretless instrument) would not be cross compatible at all. And this is before we get into even more distant territory, such as wind instruments and piano. I once played a trombone part in a big band on a six string bass (!).[/quote]
Absolutely - that's why I don't use tabs exclusively.

[quote name='endorka' post='430615' date='Mar 10 2009, 03:40 PM']I remain unconvinced about the requirement of a notation to spell out exact fingerings for every note - with experience, the musician can usually do this for themselves, and indeed fingerings may vary between musicians due to things such as instrument scale length, altered tunings, additional strings, and hand size. However, in notation, the requirement for a note to be played in a specific placed on a certain string can be indicated; one way of doing this is by writing "sul D", which means "the stated note should be played on the D string".[/quote]
That's not quite so easy for beginners, though, is it? Funnily enough, I'm now so proficient with tab that I can play a keyboard part from a tab or transpose something when I'm in the wrong tuning, which is effectively the same skill in reverse! When I started playing bass, though, I really needed it spelled out for me, and coz tabs worked for me then, I can't see the point learning to properly sight-read notation.

Thanks for the excellent answers, anyway!

[Eight]

Some tabs might contain indications of rhythm... but I've never seen one that you could play without listening to the track. Depends on what you're playing, but little details like rests, phrasings, time signatures etc. are pretty handy sometimes. Especially if you're expected to play with others and you haven't heard the piece before.

And I'm not persuaded by the suggestion that notation is too hard for beginners. I've seen some pretty stupid kids who happily learned to read standard notation as part of learning classical instruments. Are beginner guitarists and bassists somehow defective in that we can't? Fair enough if you don't want to though.

Anyway, that wasn't actually what I wanted to ask.

I've seen the suggestion a few times that tab is somehow better because it was "designed for our instrument". I'm curious - in what way is tab better suited to our strings than standard notation which suits the rest of the stringed instrument family?

I've been on the internet a long time. What tab was good for, was being able to send/receive music in a format that didn't require any special software to produce or read (as long as you had a monospaced font you were ok). Cheap/free notation software, scanners and the ability to create things like PDFs wasn't so common place a few years ago.

[Eight]

Oh - changed my mind. I have seen tab you could play without knowing the track.

AC/DC. 80% of them.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='lowdown' post='430465' date='Mar 10 2009, 01:33 PM']Hey Bilbo, funny you should mention that..
I just got the Samual Adler stuff a few days ago - good stuff [ with audio eg's ]


Garry[/quote]

Its great, isn't it? Did you get the workbook?

[lowdown]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='431058' date='Mar 10 2009, 10:06 PM']Its great, isn't it? Did you get the workbook?[/quote]

Yep, the whole lot including 5 CD's...
Just got to find the time to work through it.
It does look very interesting.

Garry

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='430582' date='Mar 10 2009, 03:09 PM']Thank you for that answer! However, I think that most of those objections are only applicable to BAD tabs that you can find all over the Internet. The tabs I use (I use tabs as well as staff notation) certainly indicate rhythm and dynamics, for a start. As far as I'm aware, articulation is indicated by little symbols above/below the note, which is surely just as easy to write on tabs as it is on notation.
As I see it, the problem is that there are lots of dreadful tabs out there giving the good ones a bad name. If tabs are used to their full potential, they can combine everything that is useful about notation with the added benefit of being specifically intended for our instrument. In contrast, I've never seen notation that tells me which fret to play on which string.[/quote]

I was reading while playing a gig tonight, the score told me which fret to play on which string, if the notation said to play a low G, then I played it 8th fret on my B string.

I wouldn't have been able to play 4 of the songs we did, I'd never played them before so I played them from a score, tab would have been useless 'cos it doesn't show the rythyms/timing of the notes.

Edited March 11, 2009 by 6stringbassist

[mcgraham]

I was at a friends' house the other day, and noticed that they had 'Teen Town' in standard notation on their music stand. I just casually decided to get through some of it. I then realised that my reading had improved, but that I wasn't fluent.

To be able to just casually glance at a piece of score and have the written notes make as much sense as reading a book is a phenomenal and underrated skill. I will be working harder towards this.

Mark

[Bilbo]

I did a trio rehearsal last night, (guitar/vocs, bass and sax), the second of 2 for a Brazillian music gig this Sunday. We have to play 35 tunes two of us don't know.

Because myself and the sax player can read, we went through them like a dose of salts and they sound really great. Can't wait for the gig.

START NOW. LEARN TO READ. IT'S BRILL!

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='470402' date='Apr 23 2009, 09:21 AM']START NOW. LEARN TO READ. IT'S BRILL![/quote]

Don't have time and have never played with another musician who can read.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='470423' date='Apr 23 2009, 09:49 AM']Don't have time and have never played with another musician who can read.[/quote]

Wonder why that is?

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='470627' date='Apr 23 2009, 12:50 PM']Wonder why that is? [/quote]


'cos I don't hang around with geeks?

[Spyke]

From what I've learned both have their uses, I prefer to read and memorise pieces as I'm not one for trusting my ears too much. I can pick out a few things by ear that I can't find tabs for but that's only because Heavy Metal basslines are easy mode, brilliant for amateurs like me.

[Doddy]

For what it's worth-I've just done 3 weeks worth of gigs which involved quite heavy reading,where as for the next few weeks everything will be
learned by ear.
I personally think that you should learn to read and develop a good/quick ear. However if you choose not to,that's fine-more work for me.

[peteb]

[quote name='Doddy' post='473605' date='Apr 27 2009, 07:08 PM']For what it's worth-I've just done 3 weeks worth of gigs which involved quite heavy reading,where as for the next few weeks everything will be
learned by ear.
I personally think that you should learn to read and develop a good/quick ear. However if you choose not to,that's fine-more work for me. [/quote]
You can develop a good/quick ear without learning to read, that’s the whole point

If you are going up for the type of gigs that require heavy reading skills you need to learn to read – if not you can get by with a ‘good/quick ear’……

[maxrossell]

I have a 1st class degree in music. I have written, produced and co-produced four albums and a half-dozen EPs or original material all in association with exceptional musicians. I'm going on for my fifteenth year as a performing musician. I even briefly had a publishing deal. I've scored three plays and two short films.

And yet I have never learned to read music.

For me, written music is a convenient tool to be used in a handful of situations that don't allow for practical communication between musicians, such as when the musicians are not in the same location, or when you're having to show a lot of musicians how to play something simultaneously. But that's all. I personally have never had to use it and most likely never will, because it's used to work in ways in which I don't like to work. And I would never trust a musician who needed to see something written down rather than just using their ears.

[Bilbo]

Ok - you win. I'll stop.

[lowdown]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476296' date='Apr 30 2009, 06:58 PM']And I would never trust a musician who needed to see something written down rather than just using their ears.[/quote]

Not sure that would have worked when Leonard Bernstein turned up in front of a 60+
Orchestra for the Recording of Westside Story....
And asked them to wing it with there ears.
He trusted them...
And look at the outcome.

Different Musical situations require different Musical skills.

Garry

[maxrossell]

[quote name='lowdown' post='476358' date='Apr 30 2009, 08:21 PM']Not sure that would have worked when Leonard Bernstein turned up in front of a 60+
Orchestra for the Recording of Westside Story....
And asked them to wing it with there ears.
He trusted them...
And look at the outcome.

Different Musical situations require different Musical skills.

Garry[/quote]

Well sure, when you take my statement completely out of context and apply it to a situation that isn't relevant to the point I'm making then yeah, it looks like I'm clearly wrong.

[lowdown]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476362' date='Apr 30 2009, 08:25 PM']Well sure, when you take my statement completely out of context and apply it to a situation that isn't relevant to the point I'm making then yeah, it looks like I'm clearly wrong.[/quote]

No, you are not wrong, thats your opinion,
You dont trust musicians who need to see something written down,
Thats cool...
I was just pointing out a situation where that would not work.

Garry

[maxrossell]

[quote name='lowdown' post='476378' date='Apr 30 2009, 08:49 PM']No, you are not wrong, thats your opinion,
You dont trust musicians who need to see something written down,
Thats cool...
I was just pointing out a situation where that would not work.

Garry[/quote]

Sure, and I was pointing out in my original post that it was my position based on how I prefer to work. But I'll bear your thoughts in mind if I'm ever required to conduct a recording of West Side Story.

[lowdown]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476385' date='Apr 30 2009, 08:56 PM']Sure, and I was pointing out in my original post that it was my position based on how I prefer to work. But I'll bear your thoughts in mind if I'm ever required to conduct a recording of West Side Story.[/quote]

The way things are done these days...
You might be just conducting Logic / Nuendo or whatever...


Garry