Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[XB26354]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476296' date='Apr 30 2009, 06:58 PM']I have a 1st class degree in music. I have written, produced and co-produced four albums and a half-dozen EPs or original material all in association with exceptional musicians. I'm going on for my fifteenth year as a performing musician. I even briefly had a publishing deal. I've scored three plays and two short films.

And yet I have never learned to read music.

For me, written music is a convenient tool to be used in a handful of situations that don't allow for practical communication between musicians, such as when the musicians are not in the same location, or when you're having to show a lot of musicians how to play something simultaneously. But that's all. I personally have never had to use it and most likely never will, because it's used to work in ways in which I don't like to work. And I would never trust a musician who needed to see something written down rather than just using their ears.[/quote]

Well done. Good thing you can read and write English though, otherwise it would be quite hard to post here. If you'd learned to read music when you were young who knows what you might think? Like any tool, reading music is only of use if you know how to do it. As you can't then I won't be booking you to conduct any orchestras!

[Eight]

A degree in music without even being able to read a few notes off the staff? Who says standards are slipping?

[maxrossell]

[quote name='XB26354' post='476411' date='Apr 30 2009, 09:37 PM']Well done. Good thing you can read and write English though, otherwise it would be quite hard to post here. If you'd learned to read music when you were young who knows what you might think? Like any tool, reading music is only of use if you know how to do it. As you can't then I won't be booking you to conduct any orchestras! [/quote]

I suppose I could argue that the one single occasion in the twenty odd years I've been playing music where knowing how to read music would have been of use to me would have been to prevent a particularly prickish music teacher I had in high school from yelling into my face that I'd never be of any musical worth to anyone if I couldn't find the dot on the line that means C#.

If I had the desire to do any of the things that would require me to know how to read or write music, I would have learned it. Like I said above and as you're saying now, it's a tool that is useful in certain circumstances. I have no particular desire to be involved in those circumstances, so it's all good for me.

[XB26354]

So what you're saying is you had a bad teacher who told you that you'll never be able to read, and that put you off. If that teacher had been the opposite and you'd learned, who knows? You're basing your opinion on something that happened a long time in the past (and would have been out of your control) and your whole viewpoint to this day is coloured by it. I don't agree with you, but as you said, it is your opinion!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476501' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:22 PM']I suppose I could argue that the one single occasion in the twenty odd years I've been playing music where knowing how to read music would have been of use to me would have been to prevent a particularly prickish music teacher I had in high school from yelling into my face that I'd never be of any musical worth to anyone if I couldn't find the dot on the line that means C#.

If I had the desire to do any of the things that would require me to know how to read or write music, I would have learned it. Like I said above and as you're saying now, it's a tool that is useful in certain circumstances. I have no particular desire to be involved in those circumstances, so it's all good for me.[/quote]

Just accept the facts. You can't read music so you're a failure. You'll never amount to anything in a musical sense.

Oh, wait...



As I mentioned somewhere in another discussion (maybe this one, I forget) - there isn't a 'right' way to do it. I think some people have a hard time accepting that.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='XB26354' post='476516' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:34 PM']So what you're saying is you had a bad teacher who told you that you'll never be able to read, and that put you off. If that teacher had been the opposite and you'd learned, who knows? You're basing your opinion on something that happened a long time in the past (and would have been out of your control) and your whole viewpoint to this day is coloured by it. I don't agree with you, but as you said, it is your opinion![/quote]

Nah, the thing with the teacher didn't phase me. I'm not one of those people who won't do something just because they had a bad experience one time. I literally just never found a use for it. I never needed to do it. It was never required of me, and I could become a musician and for my uses learn all I needed to know and play all I wanted to play without it, so I just never bothered.

My viewpoint is basically that I'm enough of a musician for my standards (and for a lot of other people's) without knowing how to read music that I don't see it as a necessary skill unless you want to do something with music that very specifically requires you to. But beyond a handful of uses as a communicative tool, whether or not someone can read or write classical notation has no real bearing on what kind of a musician they are or how good they are at it. And there are enough people out there who know as little as me about classical notation and yet have accomplished incredible musical things that I feel pretty confident about it.

[XB26354]

The fact is there are great musicians that can read, and those that can't. Therefore reading has no effect on the ability of a great musician to perform, entertain or move an audience. By all means learn how to sightread like a monster, prove yourself in professional situations all around the world in every musical style, then come back and say it's a waste of time. Until then to me it's just fear of the unknown and ignorance. If we were talking about classical music then this conversation wouldn't even be happening, and we all know nothing of any value has ever come from classical music

[The Bass Doc]

Most of the bands I rate don't put up music stands at their gigs - it's about feeeeeel (for me, poisonally speaking of course)

BUT I admire tremendously classical musicians whose dedication ensures they will always work.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='XB26354' post='476534' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:42 PM']Until then to me it's just fear of the unknown and ignorance.[/quote]

I think that that's a massively arrogant statement. People who choose to not gain expertise in a particular specialist field of their disciplines are not just afraid or ignorant. It's pathetic to look down on people just because you've chosen to learn something they don't consider all that important.

[The Bass Doc]

[quote]we all know nothing of any value has ever come from classical music[/quote]

Best bass lines ever written? - J. S. Bach (Yes I did get the irony)

[XB26354]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476542' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:47 PM']I think that that's a massively arrogant statement. People who choose to not gain expertise in a particular specialist field of their disciplines are not just afraid or ignorant. It's pathetic to look down on people just because you've chosen to learn something they don't consider all that important.[/quote]

No it isn't. You've never learned to read. Whether you made a choice about it or not, how on earth do you think you can make a coherent argument against something you chose not to do? As for being pathetic, well I'm sure resorting to insults is very noble

[The Funk]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476533' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:42 PM']I don't see it as a necessary skill unless you want to do something with music that very specifically requires you to.[/quote]

One thing I want to do with music that would specifically require me to be able to read proficiently is access a lot of the material in books to do with different aspects of music theory.

I do agree with you though. If you don't want to do anything musically that would require you to read music then you'll never need to be able to do it.

Edited April 30, 2009 by The Funk

[maxrossell]

[quote name='XB26354' post='476555' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:53 PM']No it isn't. You've never learned to read. Whether you made a choice about it or not, how on earth do you think you can make a coherent argument against something you chose not to do? As for being pathetic, well I'm sure resorting to insults is very noble [/quote]


Well, forgive me for (re)stating the obvious, but "I'm as a much of a musician as I want to be and yet I can't read music" seems to me like a perfectly coherent argument in favour of making your own decisions instead of following the instructions of people who tell you that you're either afraid or ignorant if you don't learn this or that no matter how irrelevant it is to your purposes.

And if you don't want to be called pathetic, as above, don't tell me I'm an ignorant pussy for not joining your club.

[The Funk]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476559' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:59 PM']And if you don't want to be called pathetic, as above, don't tell me I'm an ignorant pussy for not joining your club.[/quote]

I feel like a guy who's just walked into the middle of a classic bar brawl in a Western.

[XB26354]

whatever mate, life's too short. You win, I'm giving it all up. How could I be so blind?

[maxrossell]

[quote name='XB26354' post='476563' date='May 1 2009, 12:04 AM']How could I be so blind?[/quote]

Most likely a combination of fear of the unknown and ignorance.

I've enjoyed our little debate.

[The Bass Doc]

Oh dear - we are descending into the pit now - can we not just accept the point I made earlier - I LOVE listening to bands that have that feel without music stands but I also accept that if a musician wishes to make a career out of music he or she is best advised to become a proficient reader either in the classically trained orchestra direction/ as a session person allied to a recording company/or as a writer and arranger of original material etc...

There's room for everyone.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='The Funk' post='476557' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:58 PM']One thing I want to do with music that would specifically require me to be able to read proficiently is access a lot of the material in books to do with different aspects of music theory.

I do agree with you though. If you don't want to do anything musically that would require you to read music then you'll never need to be able to do it.[/quote]

You don't need to read proficiently to access theory, even at an advanced level. You just need enough knowledge to decipher it.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='476578' date='May 1 2009, 12:23 AM']You don't need to read proficiently to access theory, even at an advanced level. You just need enough knowledge to decipher it.[/quote]

This is also true. I've been looking at modes recently, and all the prior knowledge I needed was the names of the notes and so on.

[Bilbo]

There is a big point being missed here.

I am a great advocate of reading but, with the exception of (increasingly rare) big band gigs and shows, rarely read whole charts on gigs. What I do a lot of, however, is reading chord charts that contain simple arrangements that require me to be able to read rhythms at least. Whilst these cannot replace the value of a rehearsal, they can enhance the value of those rehearslas by saving a lot of time and making sure that the end product is that much better than it may otherwise have been.

My point is that the benefits of reading are not just about working gigs. It is also about getting the most out of learning, about making the most of rehearsal time (particularly important for those of us who are semi-pro and have to fit playing around work) and about communicating ideas quickly. It makes it possible for those of us who compose to get stuff played quickly and relatively easily without having to find musicians who are willing to dedicate weeks or months to the learning of material by rote. It has the potential to allow us to create more complex and sophisticated musics without having to rely on the staple sets that everyone continues to insist on regurgitating. I also find it makes busy musicians more able to retain details of one piece of music when there are gaps between rehearsals and performances, something that, in my experience, non-readers can struggle with particularly when working on new material..

Of course you can gig every night of the year by learning a 12-bar shuffle in E but that's not enough for me. I need something more aesthetically satisfying and I find that reading improves the potential for that. I also find readers are rarely any less capable of 'grooving' than non-readers. It is their familiarity with the idioms being played that matters, not the presence or otherwise of the dots.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='476702' date='May 1 2009, 09:22 AM']Of course you can gig every night of the year by learning a 12-bar shuffle in E[/quote]
Wow.. I'm glad I don't have to do that. I'd go mental.

[The Bass Doc]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='476702' date='May 1 2009, 09:22 AM']Of course you can gig every night of the year by learning a 12-bar shuffle in E[/quote]

I did try that once but to save both the band and the audient (singular) getting bored we thew caution to the wind and learned 'Crossroads' in A - really brightened up the set.

[dlloyd]

I find reading pretty handy.

I'm not proficient enough to sight read anything particularly complex on bass... I couldn't go and play a reading gig cold... but I find it much quicker to learn music from standard notation than tab.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='476702' date='May 1 2009, 09:22 AM']There is a big point being missed here.

I am a great advocate of reading but, with the exception of (increasingly rare) big band gigs and shows, rarely read whole charts on gigs. What I do a lot of, however, is reading chord charts that contain simple arrangements that require me to be able to read rhythms at least. Whilst these cannot replace the value of a rehearsal, they can enhance the value of those rehearslas by saving a lot of time and making sure that the end product is that much better than it may otherwise have been.

My point is that the benefits of reading are not just about working gigs. It is also about getting the most out of learning, about making the most of rehearsal time (particularly important for those of us who are semi-pro and have to fit playing around work) and about communicating ideas quickly. It makes it possible for those of us who compose to get stuff played quickly and relatively easily without having to find musicians who are willing to dedicate weeks or months to the learning of material by rote. It has the potential to allow us to create more complex and sophisticated musics without having to rely on the staple sets that everyone continues to insist on regurgitating. I also find it makes busy musicians more able to retain details of one piece of music when there are gaps between rehearsals and performances, something that, in my experience, non-readers can struggle with particularly when working on new material..

Of course you can gig every night of the year by learning a 12-bar shuffle in E but that's not enough for me. I need something more aesthetically satisfying and I find that reading improves the potential for that. I also find readers are rarely any less capable of 'grooving' than non-readers. It is their familiarity with the idioms being played that matters, not the presence or otherwise of the dots.[/quote]

I don't think anyone (in their right mind) would somehow suggest that knowing how to read music is somehow a [i]hindrance[/i] - I really don't see how learning more about music theory could make you a less good player.

I also totally agree with you that it's an extremely practical tool for those who as yourself are pro or semi-pro and need to get through a lot of material without the luxury of much preparation, particularly for ensemble work where everyone has to be tight after only one or to rehearsals. This is the kind of thing where, were I to be involved in it, would lead me to learn how to read and write classical notation.

[BigBeefChief]

If you site readers actually churned out some decent music I'd be more convinced. As it stands, you churn out such tosh that I prefer those who just wing it.

Learning to read is a big time investment. Maybe you're better off using that time just playing and developing your own groove?


When you learn to read, you run the risk of turning into one of those pricks who describes a certain peice of music as "clever". If I want clever, I'll read a book (or take Vorders up t'other).

Unpopular as this view may be, I believe that learning to read increases your propensity to listen to and play rubbish chin scratching music. You seem to start liking songs because they are technically clever, and not becuase they sound good.

On the flip side, I'm immensely impressed by people who can read. It's quite a feat. As long as you don't inflict your "Berklee Grad" style music on me I won't cut your face off.


Peace in the Middle-East.

Edited May 1, 2009 by BigBeefChief