Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476754' date='May 1 2009, 10:13 AM']I don't think anyone (in their right mind) would somehow suggest that knowing how to read music is somehow a [i]hindrance[/i] - I really don't see how learning more about music theory could make you a less good player.[/quote]


Whoops!

[maxrossell]

Ah, c'mon man. There's thousands upon thousands of musicians out there who can't read a note and yet consistently churn out unlistenable bulls**t. Similarly, I reckon if I went through your record collecton I'd discover that more than half your favourite musos are more or less competent at reading classical notation.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476769' date='May 1 2009, 10:23 AM']Similarly, I reckon if I went through your record collecton I'd discover that more than half your favourite musos are more or less competent at reading classical notation.[/quote]


I'm not so sure - I tend to lean towards pub rock!

Don't get me wrong, being able to read is hugely impressive as a skill, but it doesn't make you a great musician.

The argument that makes me laugh is when "pros" use the "I site read for a local production of "Rent", and I would never have got the gig if I couldn't read".

As if we're all insanely jealous of you playing the Embassy Theatre in Skegness! Lot's off us I'm sure have no desire to play the gigs that you site-readers have access to. I rather stick pins in my eyes than dep for the local jazz quartet.

I should add that there is nothing wrong with playing provincial theatres, it's just not for everyone.

[Johngh]

I've played by ear for over 30 years and I've always done OK. I can learn tunes by ear incredibly quickly, and have been able to do so since I was a kid. I suppose reading music will lead to getting the theatre gigs etc, but like Beefy said, its not everybodys bag.

Interesting case last night though. I tried out for a new band last night, never met any of the other musicians before. The keyboard player had music all over the place, we had to play a song in a different key to the one she had on her music, and she couldn't do it, totally lost.

Having a good ear is the key folk's. There is no way I'm sitting there reading the dots, its all to automated for me. Oh and while were at it, they should fire all orchestra conductors as well, biggest waste of space I've ever seen.

[lowdown]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='476788' date='May 1 2009, 10:40 AM']The argument that makes me laugh is when "pros" use the "I site read for a local production of "Rent", and I would never have got the gig if I couldn't read".[/quote]



They thought they could read - then the conductor brings in the downbeat.
Then relise they cant read...
Tell you they are gonna busk it...and relise they cant...
Then spend all week telling you that they are a 'feel' player really...


Then never seen again...........

Garry

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Johngh' post='476838' date='May 1 2009, 11:23 AM']I've played by ear for over 30 years and I've always done OK. I can learn tunes by ear incredibly quickly, and have been able to do so since I was a kid. I suppose reading music will lead to getting the theatre gigs etc, but like Beefy said, its not everybodys bag.

Interesting case last night though. I tried out for a new band last night, never met any of the other musicians before. The keyboard player had music all over the place, we had to play a song in a different key to the one she had on her music, and she couldn't do it, totally lost.

Having a good ear is the key folk's. There is no way I'm sitting there reading the dots, its all to automated for me. Oh and while were at it, they should fire all orchestra conductors as well, biggest waste of space I've ever seen. [/quote]

I did a theatre gig a couple of weeks back with a band I've worked with for a couple of years now.

However, 50% of the set was new to me. And, as the singer had just recovered from major throat surgery, every single song in the set I was familiar with already was in a different key. The keys kept changing while he worked out what he was comfortable with, and some of them weren't set in stone until the night before the gig.

Even so, I managed it. With a single 2-hour rehearsal.

And these aren't 12-bar shuffles in E, either. In fact, here's one example - originally in D, we rehearsed it in F but it was shunted to F# the night before.



Playing by ear Vs. reading music? The answer is... whatever works for you.

[lowdown]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476849' date='May 1 2009, 11:34 AM']

Playing by ear Vs. reading music? The answer is... [b]whatever works for you[/b].[/quote]

Spot on...

I like the video - good one.


Garry

[Bilbo]

Clever?

Interesting. provocative, engaging, innovative, stimulating, moving, satisfying, shocking, emotional, profound, exceptional, important, worthy, intriguing, absorbing, appealing or maybe just plain entertaining.

'Clever' just won't cut it, dots or no dots.

PS changing keys on a bass or guitar is a lot easier than doing it on keyboards (she could, of course, have used her 'transpose' key). Either way, preperation is the key as much as 'having a good ear' and this is more the case the more sophisticated the music becomes.

Whilst I applaud (and value) people that have 'good ears' (I have a good ear. Just the one, the other is tiny and ineffectual), these are only going to work if you remain in your comfort zone. If someone starts throwing in unusual harmonies or chord movements, unexpected rhythms or idiomatic details you are not familiar with, the ear is quickly tested to breaking point. I have done whole gigs 'by ear', starting songs where the only information I have is the first chord (so has pete.young when he depped for me!!). I can get away with it (have done loads of times) but the results are shallow and superficial, uninspired, even crass. Just because the punters or bookers don't complain doesn't make it right.

If you play for applause, that's all you'll ever get.

Reading is a valuable resource. If you can't do it, its no worse than not being able to read the English language. You'll get by and function perfectly well in your comfort zone. But try driving through a city you don't know if you are unable to read road signs

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='476861' date='May 1 2009, 11:47 AM']If you play for applause, that's all you'll ever get.[/quote]
I don't understand your point here - can you explain it?

[The Funk]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='476578' date='May 1 2009, 12:23 AM']You don't need to read proficiently to access theory, even at an advanced level. You just need enough knowledge to decipher it.[/quote]

True. But I like the books.

[The Funk]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='476788' date='May 1 2009, 10:40 AM']Don't get me wrong, being able to read is hugely impressive as a skill, but it doesn't make you a great musician.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='476861' date='May 1 2009, 11:47 AM']PS changing keys on a bass or guitar is a lot easier than doing it on keyboards[/quote]

Agreed

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476863' date='May 1 2009, 11:48 AM']I don't understand your point here - can you explain it?[/quote]

+1 (I wouldn't mind some applause every now and then )

[maxrossell]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='476861' date='May 1 2009, 11:47 AM']Clever?

Interesting. provocative, engaging, innovative, stimulating, moving, satisfying, shocking, emotional, profound, exceptional, important, worthy, intriguing, absorbing, appealing or maybe just plain entertaining.

'Clever' just won't cut it, dots or no dots.

PS changing keys on a bass or guitar is a lot easier than doing it on keyboards (she could, of course, have used her 'transpose' key). Either way, preperation is the key as much as 'having a good ear' and this is more the case the more sophisticated the music becomes.

Whilst I applaud (and value) people that have 'good ears' (I have a good ear. Just the one, the other is tiny and ineffectual), these are only going to work if you remain in your comfort zone. If someone starts throwing in unusual harmonies or chord movements, unexpected rhythms or idiomatic details you are not familiar with, the ear is quickly tested to breaking point. I have done whole gigs 'by ear', starting songs where the only information I have is the first chord (so has pete.young when he depped for me!!). I can get away with it (have done loads of times) but the results are shallow and superficial, uninspired, even crass. Just because the punters or bookers don't complain doesn't make it right.

If you play for applause, that's all you'll ever get.

Reading is a valuable resource. If you can't do it, its no worse than not being able to read the English language. You'll get by and function perfectly well in your comfort zone. But try driving through a city you don't know if you are unable to read road signs [/quote]


I have to disagree.

If the piece is worth listening to, as in has a recurring motif, explores a good theme and so on (i.e. isn't noodly directionless lounge jazz or woeful masturbatory prog bollocks) then any decent musician with good ears and enough experience will pick up on the key and feel within a couple of bars and be able to provide workable and (depending on his level) creative contributions to it, following the song by watching and listening to the other instrumentists. Many of us ignoramuses have developed that to the extent that it's well within our comfort zones, fast adaptability being one of the skills that any performing musician who regularly works with others absolutely needs.

Of course no matter what I do in those circumstances, there will always be someone who will think it's shallow, superficial, uninspired and crass, but then I don't play for those people.

[Eight]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='476762' date='May 1 2009, 10:17 AM']Learning to read is a big time investment. Maybe you're better off using that time just playing and developing your own groove?[/quote]
It really isn't.

I promise you - learning to read notation seems scarier than it is. Learning the notes on the F clef (bass clef) would take you ten minutes - with a few short practice sessions over a few days to be able to pick them out quickly. A MUCH harder part is knowing where the notes are on the fretboard, something which you've probably already mastered.

Say, fifteen minutes a day practicing reading rhythms (a structured approach would help) would see you at a functional sight reading level before you know it.

And just because you can read, doesn't mean you have to. Turns out I can still memorise bass lines even if I have them in notation - weird eh!

Edit: Don't do it if you don't want to... but don't kid yourself that its too hard or time consuming for you.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Eight

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Eight' post='476898' date='May 1 2009, 12:14 PM']It really isn't.

I promise you - learning to read notation seems scarier than it is. Learning the notes on the F clef (bass clef) would take you ten minutes - with a few short practice sessions over a few days to be able to pick them out quickly. A MUCH harder part is knowing where the notes are on the fretboard, something which you've probably already mastered.

Say, fifteen minutes a day practicing reading rhythms (a structured approach would help) would see you at a functional sight reading level before you know it.

And just because you can read, doesn't mean you have to. Turns out I can still memorise bass lines even if I have them in notation - weird eh!

Edit: Don't do it if you don't want to... but don't kid yourself that its too hard or time consuming for you.[/quote]


Unfortunately (for those listening to me), I don't get 15 mins a day to regularly practice. I doubt picking up the basics is difficult, especially for a genius like me, but to actually site read, I'd assume it takes some real graft?

And no, I don't know where the notes are on the fretboard either!

[lowdown]

Good reading skills together with good ears / busking skills,
With the abilty to Groove and play with a bit of feel in a variety of styles
Learn songs quickly. [ Without the whole band huddled around a CD player ]
I wonder if this has ever been done before?
If so, was it punishable by death ?


Garry

Edited May 1, 2009 by lowdown

[Eight]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='476906' date='May 1 2009, 12:19 PM']Unfortunately (for those listening to me), I don't get 15 mins a day to regularly practice. I doubt picking up the basics is difficult, especially for a genius like me, but to actually site read, I'd assume it takes some real graft?[/quote]
This is the kind of stuff the human brain is excellent at. Making associations.

After a short time, those dots stop being dots on lines and you just know from the overall shape of what you're seeing which note it is. Right now you're not thinking about the letters that are in each word I've written, your brain is recognising the overall shape of the word.

What about this. Get a book on sight reading, stick it in the bog (not actually in the throne itself). Then when you're up there taking care of business, you try practice the exercises in the book. It might get harder if it was a curry night previously but hey...

[quote]And no, I don't know where the notes are on the fretboard either![/quote]
Ah. Me neither (most of them).

[wateroftyne]

Good good ears / busking skills,
With the abilty to Groove and play with a bit of feel in a variety of styles
Learn songs quickly. [ Without the whole band huddled around a CD player ]
I wonder if has ever been done before?
If so, was it punishable by death ?

[Eight]

Should clarify I meant practice clapping/tapping rhythms on the bog. Don't take your bass in there for note practice.

The thing people find hardest with sight reading is reading the rhyhms quickly enough - but you start simple (maybe just crotchets and quavers) and work up. Your brain learns what to do when it sees a quaver next to a crotchet etc.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='476906' date='May 1 2009, 12:19 PM']Unfortunately (for those listening to me), I don't get 15 mins a day to regularly practice. I doubt picking up the basics is difficult, especially for a genius like me, but to actually site read, I'd assume it takes some real graft?

And no, I don't know where the notes are on the fretboard either![/quote]

To sight read, you have to put in [i]some[/i] work... how much obviously depends on the complexity of the piece.

I'd imagine you could sight read this already:



And if not, you could be reading it within a few seconds.

[stevie]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476296' date='Apr 30 2009, 06:58 PM']I have a 1st class degree in music. I have written, produced and co-produced four albums and a half-dozen EPs or original material all in association with exceptional musicians. I'm going on for my fifteenth year as a performing musician. I even briefly had a publishing deal. I've scored three plays and two short films.

And yet I have never learned to read music.[/quote]
There are plenty of fine musicians who can't read but I suspect that a first-class degree in busking isn't worth the paper it's written on. What college is it from?

And what do you mean by 'scored' - written out the chord charts? Nothing wrong with that, but if you wanted to arrange music for a full orchestra you'd be a bit stuck not being able to read. Unless you were Paul McCartney, of course.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='stevie' post='476947' date='May 1 2009, 12:46 PM']There are plenty of fine musicians who can't read but I suspect that a first-class degree in busking isn't worth the paper it's written on. What college is it from?

And what do you mean by 'scored' - written out the chord charts? Nothing wrong with that, but if you wanted to arrange music for a full orchestra you'd be a bit stuck not being able to read. Unless you were Paul McCartney, of course.[/quote]

Ah aha ha. Very funny. University of Central Lancashire. Joint Honours, Bachelor of Arts in Music & The Creative Arts and Performance Technology. And you can save whatever Mickey Mouse comments I'm sure you have in store, because I'd rather you didn't unwittingly insult the former tutors and now close friends of mine who wrote the course.

And scored as in written the music for. Variously, horns, strings, percussion, keys and vocals. On a couple of occasions for an orchestra, although if by "full" you mean 100+, not really. more like 25 at most. However we made it just fine without a single piece of written classical notation.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476863' date='May 1 2009, 11:48 AM']I don't understand your point here - can you explain it?[/quote]

If all you aspire to is getting a good audience reaction (direct or indirect), then you are in for an easy ride - I can give you the set list and you are away.

If you want to create something that is a little more profound, original, creative, ambitious etc you will have to resign yourself to smaller and smaller indications of acceptance and be satisfied with the knowledge that YOU know it is better. You will also leave yourself wide open to criticism from those that believe that anything you can't dance to serves no purpose.

In a nutshell, it is an art vs craft debate. I prefer music as art rather than commerce; my funeral

[stevie]

I wonder how many of you non-readers realize how much music is available for free on the web. There are literally thousands of midi and Guitar Pro arrangements all over the place with a full bass line. For example, following the recent thread here on Blues tunes, I downloaded the following midi files earlier today for a practice session tonight – me and my trusty laptop orchestra.

Crossroads
Born under a Bad Sign
Thrill is Gone
Into the Night
Cocaine
I Shot the Sheriff
Lay Down Sally
Tears in Heaven
Wonderful Tonight
Need Your Love So Bad
Pride and Joy
Texas Flood

And while I was at it, I picked up a few others that I fancy playing.

Jessica
Walking in Memphis
Don’t Let Me Be Lonely Tonight
Birdland
And some some others including a few jazz standards and Air on a G String for string quartet.

I’ve only played two or three of these before but I will probably get most of them 90 percent down this evening. I certainly couldn't do it without the dots. It takes longer to actually memorize them, of course.

I’ve only been playing for two years but I decided right from the start that I was going to learn to read. It’s made all the difference. I suspect that reading from the very outset is the way to do it, rather than learning to read once you can already play. As this thread makes only too clear, it is easy to find a perfectly reasonable excuse why you need not bother.

Edited May 1, 2009 by stevie

[Bilbo]

Stevie rocks!

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='stevie' post='476976' date='May 1 2009, 01:18 PM']I wonder how many of you non-readers realize how much music is available for free on the web. There are literally thousands of midi and Guitar Pro arrangements all over the place with a full bass line. For example, following the recent thread here on Blues tunes, I downloaded the following midi files earlier today for a practice session tonight – me and my trusty laptop orchestra.

Crossroads
Born under a Bad Sign
Thrill is Gone
Into the Night
Cocaine
I Shot the Sheriff
Lay Down Sally
Tears in Heaven
Wonderful Tonight
Need Your Love So Bad
Pride and Joy
Texas Flood

And while I was at it, I picked up a few others that I fancy playing.

Jessica
Walking in Memphis
Don’t Let Me Be Lonely Tonight
Birdland
And some some others including a few jazz standards and Air on a G String for string quartet.

I’ve only played two or three of these before but I will probably get most of them 90 percent down this evening. I certainly couldn't it without the dots. It takes longer to actually memorize them, of course.

I’ve only been playing for two years but I decided right from the start that I was going to learn to read. It’s made all the difference. I suspect that reading from the very outset is the way to do it, rather than learning to read once you can already play. As this thread makes only too clear, it is easy to find a perfectly reasonable excuse why you need not bother.[/quote]

But again, its the Skegness Theatre argument. Good for you, but I have no desire to play those songs. The musicians I play will will never have heard of them. If I were to play them, I wouldn't play the bass line as recorded.